Some pointers on shifting gears

Mir · 03-01-2009, 09:19 AM

A little background:

I work professionally as a lead developer for a web based company. I have a great deal of practical experience in programming for the web (mostly LAMP / JavaScript) but more than just some simple dynamic web pages. I manage several large scale web applications. My point is that I am familiar with software development in a real world environment as it relates to the web.

My question isn't about XNA or C# or anything, it's about REAL software development. For some reason I've never felt like programming on a web platform was "real" programming, and also for as much practical experience I have, I have ziltch classroom education about real software development.

So what CAN I take from my real world experience and apply to game / software development? It seems like a whole separate world to me, but maybe it isn't. I'm mostly concerned about the major pitfalls that programming for the web wouldn't have prepared me for.

x1hundredregrets · 03-01-2009, 10:13 AM

I think one of the big things would be efficiency of the code you write. I know when I write web code, being efficient usually falls to the back burner as I focus on functionality.

Flipping around to game development, you really have to think about the tiny little minute details that might effect efficiency. Is the order I declare shit in this class or struct going to effect how badly my heap and stack get fragmented? Are there any heuristics that I can use to speed up this algorithm. Stuff like that.

When you're trying to squeeze every single extra FPS out of your code, the little things really start to matter.

Fog · 03-01-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mir

A little background:

I work professionally as a lead developer for a web based company. I have a great deal of practical experience in programming for the web (mostly LAMP / JavaScript) but more than just some simple dynamic web pages. I manage several large scale web applications. My point is that I am familiar with software development in a real world environment as it relates to the web.

My question isn't about XNA or C# or anything, it's about REAL software development. For some reason I've never felt like programming on a web platform was "real" programming, and also for as much practical experience I have, I have ziltch classroom education about real software development.

So what CAN I take from my real world experience and apply to game / software development? It seems like a whole separate world to me, but maybe it isn't. I'm mostly concerned about the major pitfalls that programming for the web wouldn't have prepared me for.

I don't think there are any unexpected pitfalls. Frankly, I find that web programming is generally more difficult, since it's implicitly performance-critical and heavily multithreaded, whereas desktop programming is not necessarily so.

EDIT: Server-side web programming, that is.

x1hundredregrets · 03-01-2009, 12:09 PM

Ya, I guess I assumed the OP was talking about client-side web development. Server-side development is going to have a lot of parallels in game development, especially MMO development.

Mir · 03-01-2009, 12:58 PM

Server side is what I'm refering to mainly (in PHP) though I have to do both server side and client side to build an application so both do apply.

Thank's for the tips though.

Drenik · 03-02-2009, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x1hundredregrets

Is the order I declare shit in this class or struct going to effect how badly my heap and stack get fragmented? Are there any heuristics that I can use to speed up this algorithm. Stuff like that.

On modern processors having poor cache coherency is one of the best ways to kill your programs's efficiency. It isn't so much the number of operations you throw at the processor anymore, but more the cache misses that lead to processor stalls. The problem is, you have to be careful to not try to over think things either. Generally, using cache friendly algorithms combined with a good global memory allocator replacement (like dlmalloc .. in C++ at least) will have you covered.

If after profiling you think reorganizing your data could speed things up, that is when you worry about custom allocators for certain data structures. Trying to optimize too much ahead of time can cause you just as many problems as not thinking about it at all. There is a fine balance, but giving good thought to algorithms used (Big O notation actually comes into effect believe it or not!) and memory layout usually starts you out on the right foot.

Of course, I work as a C++ developer on real-time systems and I have no clue about web development so I'm not able to comment on the differences. I just wanted to back up other comments made.

Ennya Dragonslayer · 03-05-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mir

...
So what CAN I take from my real world experience and apply to game / software development? It seems like a whole separate world to me, but maybe it isn't. I'm mostly concerned about the major pitfalls that programming for the web wouldn't have prepared me for.

Without going into too much detail, if you're working with languages that are interpreted instead of compiled you have not been exposed to a kind of complexity that exists below the interpreter. Everything you have done thus far assumes the application that is interpreting your code will take care of everything for you. If you begin doing the C/C++, Java, FORTRAN, etc.. that make up the library side of most programming you need to worry about much bigger issues. Now, every one of those languages is different, but overall they do not solve dynamic memory acquisition, threading, asynchronism, and other lower level issues. Also, basic IO operations can be more complicated, and in some cases is flat out rude. (Yes, java does trash collection, I know.)

It depends a LOT on what you're actually doing. Some tasks are very straight forward, others can be extremely complicated. It's not the best measure, but the first application I worked on out of college was 8 million lines of code server + client. MySQL is about 850000 lines of code.

EDIT: spelling/grammar

Froofy-D · 03-06-2009, 07:11 PM

Stating the obvious, but the best way (imho the only way) to learn is to just start coding a game and finish it. Coding is exactly like math: reading theorems give you the big picture, but if you never actually solve a math problem with the theorems, your understanding will remain superficial.

Einstein probably solved 1000's of math problems just like Bjarne Stroustrup (inventor of C++) probably wrote 1000's of programs. Neither would have accomplished what they did by just reading about theory and never applying it.

Ennya Dragonslayer · 03-10-2009, 10:37 AM

Also, if you do switch over to a language like c with "pass by reference" as well as "pass by value" you will understand why the name of this thread is amusing...

Fog · 03-13-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ennya Dragonslayer

Also, if you do switch over to a language like c with "pass by reference" as well as "pass by value" you will understand why the name of this thread is amusing...

"Contains a word" is not the same as "amusing."

Ennya Dragonslayer · 03-14-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fog

"Contains a word" is not the same as "amusing."

There is more than "one word" in the title related to low level programming. If you happen to work on CODECs you get very intimate with shifting.

Looking for pointers on shifting to using pointers is amusing.

Grooverider · 03-15-2009, 05:19 AM

It isn't even remotely amusing.

Fog · 03-15-2009, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ennya Dragonslayer

There is more than "one word" in the title related to low level programming. If you happen to work on CODECs you get very intimate with shifting.

Looking for pointers on shifting to using pointers is amusing.

Hey, you forgot one! "Some" refers to a set operation -- we're taking a subset of all the pointers, ha ha ha!

Gee, what a laugh riot! Who knew that all these words could mean things!

Szlia · 03-26-2009, 08:55 AM

You know you shifted gear when you start to find coder humor funny I guess.

Faille · 03-26-2009, 05:45 PM

there are 10 types of people in the world.
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

03-01-2009, 09:19 AM	#1 (permalink)
Mir HULK SMASH Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Saturn Posts: 232 -1 Internets	Some pointers on shifting gears A little background: I work professionally as a lead developer for a web based company. I have a great deal of practical experience in programming for the web (mostly LAMP / JavaScript) but more than just some simple dynamic web pages. I manage several large scale web applications. My point is that I am familiar with software development in a real world environment as it relates to the web. My question isn't about XNA or C# or anything, it's about REAL software development. For some reason I've never felt like programming on a web platform was "real" programming, and also for as much practical experience I have, I have ziltch classroom education about real software development. So what CAN I take from my real world experience and apply to game / software development? It seems like a whole separate world to me, but maybe it isn't. I'm mostly concerned about the major pitfalls that programming for the web wouldn't have prepared me for.

03-26-2009, 08:55 AM	#14 (permalink)
Szlia Conquest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 5,643 +25 Internets	You know you shifted gear when you start to find coder humor funny I guess. __________________ -retrosabotage-

03-26-2009, 05:45 PM	#15 (permalink)
Faille Fires of Heaven Officer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 3,364 +25 Internets	there are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. __________________ Faille Fires of Heaven http://www.fohguild.org/forums/uberw...lopment-forum/

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03-01-2009, 10:13 AM	#2 (permalink)
x1hundredregrets Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 373 -9 Internets	I think one of the big things would be efficiency of the code you write. I know when I write web code, being efficient usually falls to the back burner as I focus on functionality. Flipping around to game development, you really have to think about the tiny little minute details that might effect efficiency. Is the order I declare shit in this class or struct going to effect how badly my heap and stack get fragmented? Are there any heuristics that I can use to speed up this algorithm. Stuff like that. When you're trying to squeeze every single extra FPS out of your code, the little things really start to matter.

03-01-2009, 12:09 PM	#4 (permalink)
x1hundredregrets Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 373 -9 Internets	Ya, I guess I assumed the OP was talking about client-side web development. Server-side development is going to have a lot of parallels in game development, especially MMO development.

03-01-2009, 12:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mir HULK SMASH Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Saturn Posts: 232 -1 Internets	Server side is what I'm refering to mainly (in PHP) though I have to do both server side and client side to build an application so both do apply. Thank's for the tips though.

03-06-2009, 07:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
Froofy-D upper management material Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 2,197 +17 Internets	Stating the obvious, but the best way (imho the only way) to learn is to just start coding a game and finish it. Coding is exactly like math: reading theorems give you the big picture, but if you never actually solve a math problem with the theorems, your understanding will remain superficial. Einstein probably solved 1000's of math problems just like Bjarne Stroustrup (inventor of C++) probably wrote 1000's of programs. Neither would have accomplished what they did by just reading about theory and never applying it.

03-10-2009, 10:37 AM	#9 (permalink)
Ennya Dragonslayer Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 171 +3 Internets	Also, if you do switch over to a language like c with "pass by reference" as well as "pass by value" you will understand why the name of this thread is amusing...

03-15-2009, 05:19 AM	#12 (permalink)
Grooverider 1234567890 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Svenborgia Posts: 1,299	It isn't even remotely amusing.