Space Game idea

[Faille]

Actually, not sure if this would be a game, though it probably have game applications.

Basically, I've watched countless sci fi shows and am tired of their attempts to explain FTL travel and have distences that have little meaning.

So what I'm envisioning is a trading style game. Starts off with dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of star systems spread randomly around. In order to travel from one system to another, jump gates need to be built connecting them. That's where players come in. They would be the ones building the gates in order to facilitate trade.

The cost for building a gate and for traveling between them would have to increase exponentially with distance so that its more economical to build shorter gates. However, it's probably faster, and more profitable to trade via longer jump gates. ie its more profitable to trade between 2 systems connections by a 10ly jump gate, then to go via 10 jump gates that are 1yl distance.

The trading itself I would be happy to be automatic, though obviously that opens a game in itself. I'd rather not worry to much about about designing a commodity market or having players manually flying the routes. Instead, players would just be able to build ships that would automatically run the most profitable routes.

You could have the players start on random planets. or they could start on just one, or even have different races as starting points and possibly give each race different values for their construction, though that might all be more down the road. Likewise you could have the ability to destroy other players jump gates, though would be at a great cost.

You would probably need to have a limit to the number of gates at each system, though possibly that could be increased, or just a increasing amount per gate added. 1m for first, 2m for 2nd, 4m for 3rd, etc. though possibly 1,1,2,3,5,8,13 might be better system to use to it doesn't get too much too quickly.

the main thing I want to see is how a galaxy would be colonized assuming jump gates were invented and get a real feel for how a real trading network might develop. As such I would like it to be more online though I guess single player might work. It really sounds like a space tycoon style of game, doesn't it?

Any ideas on how to design and program this sort of game / computer model? Any volunteers to help do it? 8)

[xilsharn]

This game pretty much describes exactly what you're talking about.

[Faille]

Originally Posted by xilsharn

This game pretty much describes exactly what you're talking about.

I don't see how.

[Vatoreus]

What kind of graphical style you going for? I can help w/ some of the 2d stuff, but not much in the way of 3d.

[Faille]

2d is probably fine, except that space is 3D. Shouldn't be hard to show that as some sort of flat projection, as long as the distances remain real.

If anything, what I'm after is railroad tycoon through the stars. Where building the tracks is a major facet of the game, combined with utilizing them fully.

[Seth]

If making distance more meaningful, or more of a factor in the choices players, choosing to use Gates only instead of FTL drives is really just trading one popular implementation of sci-fi tech for another. I would say consider what is it you're trying to accomplish and more specifically, how you wish to accomplish it. Being in control of all the game mechanics you can scale it to be as powerful or as gimped as you like and anywhere in between. There are a lot of easily conceivable factors which could prevent them from letting players zip around to any part of your galaxy at will.

Take EVE for instance. The cost of fuel (and distance limitations per jump) make it impractical to constantly jump around unless you are fairly rich. However, scaling the price of fuel, or the availability to mine/obtain is essentially a throttle on how often someone will jump.

As another example, BSG has the interesting limitation of needing to spend time calculating a jump before they can actually make it accurately. If used the same way in a game, you can effectively limit a player's ability to jump to whatever abitrary base time period you choose; then reducing that amount of time based on skills and/or ship equipment (such as better computers).

Gates do add the bonus of forcing travel flow through specific points though, which allows you to design things around that concept, such as gate sentries, turrets, or whatever. However you can also place restrictions on jumping by requiring players to acquire something like "starmap data" for a point before they can warp to it. It could be an item that is acquired from NPCs or you can physically require them to go to the point (or someone with the skills and equipment) and collect the information and turn it into tradeable "starmap data" which allows a jump to that point. If you don't want that sort of thing to be a commodity just put it right into the computer so they can use it, or use some variation of no drop. Of course you can also do a mix of both.

Obviously there's probably a lot of holes in some (or a lot) of my conjecture and you may have completely different reasons for wanting only gates, or you may just hate the idea of warping as a mechanic. However, I was simply hoping to provide an alternate point of view on the issue.

Edit: I just realized that I was going on the assumption that you were describing something like EVE where you can (mostly) move within a system or general area unassisted but require a gate as a mechanism to transport you between systems/areas. If I assumed incorrectly then some of what I wrote is probably out of context though I think a lot of it would still be valid.

[Zora]

Interesting idea. Might be even more interesting if say there were a limited number of tracks possible between each planet to foster some competition.

For example, say there was a certain valuable resource on planet A that those on planets B, C, D and E needed and only 2 possible routes for tracks due to dangerous space debris etc. First two to build a safe route to planet A get the route. The losers would have to look elsewhere. Each planet would have certain resources but need to build routes to other planets for the resources they lacked.

This would need to be fleshed out more but hopefully you get where I'm going.

[Faille]

Seth, the game side of things is really just a side benefit to what I want to see and that's a universe travel model, in action. Most sci fi shows are easy to pick apart which is fair enough since they are stories not science. Even in BSG, they spent how many months constantly jumping, then all of a sudden starbuck was able to jump back to caprica very quickly? I'm sure you could come up with a reason for it, but I would probably find it somewhat contrived and lacking in logic.

I'm interesting in seeing how a universe might be colonised assuming travel between stars was possible. I chose jump gates into to really force travel between 2 points, ie star systems, rather then the vaguenesses of intermediate steps or travel time. Other styles of FTL travel might be something to look at, but I think jump gate type system represent a simple first step to take.

Personally I think it also makes more sense, though obviously it's all theoretical. It just seems that if you're shifting a certain object, of a certain size across a certain distance to arrive within a certain time, then its going to take a certain amount of energy. That energy source is better to come from outside the object itself since it automatically reduces the mass in the object and removes any limits to your power source as well.

Zora, I did mention the idea of limiting the number of connections a system can have, though I think I prefer the idea of escalating costs. first 2 to build to a system pay base costs, next person has to pay twice the base costs, so maybe at that price it's not worth it, or will result in greatly reduced profitability.

Ideally, I'd like to see cooperation be a very attractive option. So while people might be competing with each other all the time, there will be good reasons for teaming up. Like 2 people going halves in constructing a 10 ly jump rather then each building 5 ly jumps and they get to share the route.

[xilsharn]

I'm fucking astounded you people have never played TradeWars 2002. This is exactly how that game works.

[Vatoreus]

Freelancer had a pretty cool jump gate system, in that between planets/stations you had jump rails and then between systems you had controlled wormholes.

[prescient63]

I'm confused about one point. Once a player or corporation builds a gate do they own that gate and no one else can travel through it? If this is not the case then you would run into what is known as the free rider problem. It basically says that certain individuals have no incentive to put money into projects if they can piggy back off of other individuals. There are obviously easy ways around this such as tolls, which would be my preferred method. Especially since first to market will by and large have a stranglehold over the gates in that system.

However, if their prices were high enough you could figure out the NPV of building a new gate that goes to the same system and decide whether it was worth it. Then once there were two gates in once system price wars would ensue and costs of travel would come down. There would also need to be some sort of set value for the operational costs of the gates. Interestingly you wouldn't actually need increasing gate costs. Basically first to market will recoup their costs first by high toll prices, and when other entities enter the market they will reduce their prices, eventually operating just above the bare minimum to where it is not efficient to build new gates any longer.

A pass system where you could buy a pass to a certain corporation's gates for trading purposes would maybe be even better than tolls. The other part of the pass system is that if you are buying a certain pass there would be an incentive for large corporations to create gigantic trading networks rather than using someone else's and would provide a benefit to those who purchase passes.
I think this game has huge merit. For it to be fun for me there would have to be a sort of stock market/contract system. People could develop investment funds to fund new projects, hostile takeovers, and acquire new capital for corporations.

I love your idea, but needs some work on the economic end mostly because this is a trading/economics game if I am reading your post correctly.

[Seth]

Originally Posted by Faille

I'm interesting in seeing how a universe might be colonised assuming travel between stars was possible. I chose jump gates into to really force travel between 2 points, ie star systems, rather then the vaguenesses of intermediate steps or travel time. Other styles of FTL travel might be something to look at, but I think jump gate type system represent a simple first step to take.

I said what I did with the idea of a more first person view in mind. After I submitted I saw you had posted again and it clarified things. Gates definitely work better in any sort of RTS or strategy type deal where you control multiple units.

Anyways, sorry for the confusion!

p.s. BSG has a bad habbit of touching on those logistical issues like fuel or the fact that the fuel workers have been going 24/7 since the cylon attack, and then just completely ditching the storyline. Though it's not exactly surprising, because as you mentioned it's a story. The story comes first and any science / logistics are applied after it's written. I'm not trying to derail though, I just think it's a little ridiculous!

[xilsharn]

Originally Posted by Faille

I don't see how.

Ok, let me help:

Take everything you typed in the OP, then turn it into a 2D game based on an old text MUD.

[Faille]

Originally Posted by xilsharn

Ok, let me help:

Take everything you typed in the OP, then turn it into a 2D game based on an old text MUD.

By all means, please point me anything in tradewars that describes how you can create the connections between 2 systems, and how the creation of those is the focus of the game.

[Faille]

Really, its a what if scenario, computer simulation / model on what would happen if jump gates were invented today.

Named, GE and Sony and so forth would start building jump gates. smaller companies might band together to afford it. They would probably go to different systems, to avoid competition but that would depend on desirability of resources which is something that might make things too complicated, at least initially, but could be added in later. This basically means that for the moment, all planets are equal and trading between any 2 would generate the same profit. Obviously in reality, the pure gold planet would be the one they all wanted to get to first. The companies would definitely charge other people for using their gates, though I'd imagine it would be a long while before independent operators would be viable.

In fact the whole commodity, trading, exploring thing isn't what I'm interested in between the fact the you setup a way to travel between 2 points and its going to make you x amount of money. There's already more then enough trading / exploring / space combat games.

What I'm looking at is a really top level, pure strategic view of what would happen. This would be especially interesting in a mmo setting. Would people cooperate to spread throughout the universe, or will they focus on their own personal success. No doubt it would be a constantly changing mix of the 2 and who knows what else.