Roadmap 1: Define a mech

[Linbog]

Figured I would start a dicussion on this as its a pretty good topic. Not to mention write something little more on target compared to my other flippant post

I think a mech should be defined as a single occupant Environmental Combat Suit regardless of its shape or form of mobility. Thinking various 'suits' could be tailored specifically to roles, from bipedal and quadripedal to tanks and wheeled vehicles. Weight requirements would fit significantly into the form somewhat similar to how Chromehounds and Armored Core.

[orcmauler]

You beat me to it, but the Armored Core series (psx--ps3) has the best customizable mech environment I have seen (yes even better than mech warrior since it has been mia since M$ bought fasa). Now the issue would be translating that sort of universe to a non first person shooter environment to a mmo/rpg setting.

[TKarrde]

Originally Posted by Linbog

Figured I would start a dicussion on this as its a pretty good topic. Not to mention write something little more on target compared to my other flippant post

I think a mech should be defined as a single occupant Environmental Combat Suit regardless of its shape or form of mobility. Thinking various 'suits' could be tailored specifically to roles, from bipedal and quadripedal to tanks and wheeled vehicles. Weight requirements would fit significantly into the form somewhat similar to how Chromehounds and Armored Core.

Hm. I'm not sure calling tanks, etc, mechs is the best idea.

As things are supposed to be more tactical rather than twitch, and henchmen/pets were one of the target features listed in the wiki, why not make tanks/other more "normal" combat vehicles fill that role?

Though, that's a bit off topic of defining mech.

Legs, etc, should be rather free ranging, in my opinion - I think the division is that they don't use tracks or wheels, but rather legs period, no matter how many that may be.

[Linbog]

Originally Posted by TKarrde

Legs, etc, should be rather free ranging, in my opinion - I think the division is that they don't use tracks or wheels, but rather legs period, no matter how many that may be.

Tachikomas required... :P

[Faille]

A pox on computer crashes that wipe away what I've written before I can submit.

Anyway, after a heated discussion in IRC, I believe we came to the consensus that a Mech is going to be treated as a single entity in terms of its chassis. There was some talk about sub dividing it and making it modular, but that was deemed undesirable. We're still hoping to implement locational damage, but we'll have to see.

The chassis will have attributes that will govern its performance, as well as provide some restriction on what components can be put it on it.

The chassis will have slots that allow for components to be equipped. These slots will come in different types that allow for different categories of components, very similar to how its done in Eve. We'll have different Chassis that have different configurations of slots and attributes that will allow for different roles to be utilized.


Once again, nothing is set in stone yet, but this is where we're up to. Feel free to add any corrections or further thoughts.

[Linbog]

Originally Posted by Faille

Anyway, after a heated discussion in IRC, I believe we came to the consensus that a Mech is going to be treated as a single entity in terms of its chassis. There was some talk about sub dividing it and making it modular, but that was deemed undesirable. We're still hoping to implement locational damage, but we'll have to see.

The chassis will have attributes that will govern its performance, as well as provide some restriction on what components can be put it on it.

The chassis will have slots that allow for components to be equipped. These slots will come in different types that allow for different categories of components, very similar to how its done in Eve. We'll have different Chassis that have different configurations of slots and attributes that will allow for different roles to be utilized.

Why go with a restrictive slots system when you can go with a sliding scale with say power/weight/heat or something to provide more indistinct class roles and easier hybridization?

Edit: I guess mostly I'm interested in the reasons behind the design decisions.

[Faille]

Originally Posted by Linbog

Why go with a restrictive slots system when you can go with a sliding scale with say power/weight/heat or something to provide more indistinct class roles and easier hybridization?

Edit: I guess mostly I'm interested in the reasons behind the design decisions.

I guess in theory you could go with something like that. the main idea is obviously you want to limit how much stuff a player can put on a mech, like if its 12 slots, you don't want them putting 12 weapon systems on it.

The simplest method is the limit those 12 slots to 4 turret capable slots and 2 launcher capable slots and you instantly know the max firepower the mech would be capable of.

You also want to limit silly configurations like lasers beams from their eyes and rocket launchers from their arses 8) . Apart from being silly, which is purely my opinion of course, there is also the model / art aspect in that those components need to be modeled in such a way that they can easily appear on the mech.

You sugguestion is still possible though, it certainly can be tweaked to achieve the first aim by just not giving the chassis enough attributes to fit more then the desired weapons, or any other component, and the 2nd aim is also possible if you're not worried about silly configurations, though you would need to limit the visibility of slots. ie a weapon on the shoulder will be visible, while if you put it on the foot slot it wouldn't be.

[orcmauler]

The one problem with mech chasis that are set in stone (if I am reading you correctly) is that not only do you invite, you guarantee cookie-cutter specs.

Whereas the mix-match system (a la the earlier armored core suggestion) allows "true" customization though also allows the possibility of truly gimped mechs.

However, I can understand the template strategy due to ease of use/implementation issues, just that it really limits the player as to what each mech type can do.

Whoops, one of your recent replies (faille) pretty much addressed this, but I prefer the weight/power ratio system rather than light/medium/heavy chassis sets.

[Faille]

Customization and the ability to come up with original setup is one of our highest priorities for how we want implement the design of the mechs. How to achieve that is another matter though.

For a setup to be original, there needs to be a standard one to compare it to 8)
You could certainly allow any component any slot, but that runs the risk of balancing issues. That's not to say we'll rule it out, just that we may make a choice between the less of two evils, and which method achieve the aim with the fewest drawbacks.

Also keep in mind that while we may come up with light/medium/heavy mech, or ideally a few versions of each, in any given Chassis I would like to see as many variations as possible so 2 medium mechs facing off against each other will have radically different components, and thus different battle plans for how they approach the fight.

[Rezz]

You could have something akin to "type" requirements and energy requirements to equip each component. Ie, restrict speed enhancing chips/addons to medium/light with medium to high energy output.

An example would be using the concept of light/heavy/medium mechs, comprised of similar pieces. A light mech would be using light mech equipment, and would inherantly be more mobile than medium or heavy mechs, though with less durability/armor and lower heat/energy creation/use. Hrm, lots of /'s in here~

Perhaps there are core units that comprise the mech, such as arms, legs, torso, sensor array (head) and then peripheral slots. You could also equip non-standard parts in the various core sections, as long as they fit the requirements, such as instead of legs having a hover-motion unit, or instead of "arms" you could equip batteries of missiles.

You also let the core units of the mech determine how many peripheral slots you have. Ie, if you have missile batteries instead of arms, you couldn't have a pistol in one fist and a rocket launcher on the shoulder, as the battery wouldn't be sturdy enough to support the rocket launcher as well as a full on arm/shoulder assembly would. The "heavier" the unit, the more average slots could fit into the mech. The actual components and peripheral units that could be added would vary from type to type with additional requirements. The search for better cooling systems so you can carry increasingly more powerful equipment, the idea of lightening parts so that you could increase your speed. Stuff like that.

You could also have jury-rigged components that affect the amount of additional components/peripheral units in a more direct way. Such as adding more plating to a heavy mech would reduce the amount of possible peripheral units as well as reducing mobility and what not, or lightening a medium mech's legs could reduce the total encumbrance potential of the mech while increasing it's mobility.

Graphically, additions such as thickened plating/lightening wouldn't need to be expressed, as they would be more statistical enhancements/reductions. But that sort of stuff would affect the amount of peripherals the affected parts could attach.

Hrm, to illustrate, you have a medium mech with standard medium arms, legs, torso and array. The arms start with two interior slots, 2 exterior slots, and is considered medium type medium energy medium weight. Legs would have 1 exterior and 2 interior slots, med/med/med (type/energy/weight) sensor array would have 1 exterior 4 interior med/light/med and the torso would have 3 external 4 internal and med/heavy/med.

You decide that to start off with before you start buying parts, you want to add an additional layer of plating to the sensor array and the arms as they have the lowest armor level of core units (an example) and you apply Mark I Ceramic thermal plates to the sensor array and arms.

This would reduce your exterior slots on both by 1. This means you can eithe r have one shoulder mounted weapon and some form of internal weapon or one hand based weapon and some internal weapons, not a shoulder and hand weapon. You couldn't add any additional radar functionality to the sensor array, but you would still have access to adding chips that help with targeting, lock-ons or other systems.

Perhaps you want to lighten the armor on the torso to make up for the lost mobility of adding the ceramic plates, you reduce one internal slot in the legs and slightly increase the mobility but slightly lower the durability of the legs. This would mean that you could add an external and an internal, but not two internal.

This would immediately change the "spec" of the possible mech, as you now have a partially "heavy" configuration on some pieces and a possible "light" configuration on other pieces. Note, this wouldn't be the true effect of having a heavy or light mech, as they are still considered medium, just altered in stats/possible component configurations.

Man, that's kind of all over the place hah, my apologies. Very interesting project though!

[Fattyfat]

I like how under "define a mech" we are already talking about weapons!

Weapons are an addition to a mech, think about what a mech is straight from the factory without heated seats, power doors, or laser guided munitions.

What about things like, how does a mech move and what can the player do with movement. Can a mech jump? What does speed rating do? What internal systems does a mech have? Can it self repair? How is damage handled? Etc...

Lets start with the Basic Mech Chasis, lets assume for now that a chasis is set in stone (this can always change later), it has a set number of base attributes (which can always be enhanced) and systems. Lets define these and also define what the player can do with a mech.


Also, there's a good chance there will not be a physical player avatar, but rather a portrait or something! For our first milestone we care about the functional aspects of the game and getting all the basic things down.

---

Some example mech things we have discussed:

- Quake/(WoW) style movement and camera controls
- A Heat generation subsystem for weapon/equipment use
- Multiple armor types
- An automatic self repairing subsystem that repairs subsystems and weapons (not damage), the player can micromanage this system
- A shield subsystem that the player can manipulate to different areas if we do localized damage
- Slot types for equipment
- Single non-modular Chasis
- Jump Jets giving a single immediate burst applied impulse in the current direction of movement, the player may not alter direction until the burst completes, but can turn.
- Non-Twitch style combat. Targeting and instant-cast weapon use, including weapon groupings etc.

[Rezz]

Energy Output: The amount of power supplied to the rest of the mech so to determine what configurations can be used (unless you want the engine to be considered a secondary component)

Durability: The "hp" of the mech, using whichever system you guys end up going with.

Weight: Could be either an encumbrance type number (as in, mechs with this chasis equipped cannot exceed x lbs) or a static "this weighs x amount"

Number of External Mounts: The amount of things that can be attached to it, this could also take into account the number and type of leg/tread/hover assemblies and arms.

Number of Internal Slots: How many non weapon/defensive parts such as radar assemblies, targeting, lock defining parts and what have you inside the chasis itself.

Affinity: Which type of body-type (heavy/light/medium) the chasis is designed for, could also indicate A pre-designed preference for specific configurations, ie, "set bonus"

Propulsion: Rocket/Space power/energy consumption/heat generation and overall statistics such as duration and what have you (unless this is entirely terrestrial with rocket packs being extreme limited use. Like engine, that could be an external/internal separate part)

Heat Generation/Reduction: the rating determining how good the coolant system is or a number that simply adds onto the overall heat generation of the mech, depending on if you want the number to be good or bad.

[Rezz]

Of course, if the concept is that all chasis are the same, then the peripherals and add-ons would determine all statistics about the mech. Is that the idea?

[Fattyfat]

I like internal and external slots or mounts, I think we could use that in our slot system and it would also help out the modeling team.

We haven't decided if we need weight or not as a gameplay mechanic. If a chasis is set in stone with its attributes, I believe the configuration of internal/external slots will be enough to fit our item balance issues.

Lets also not forget that a very real posibility that if your mech gets destroyed then it is gone, as is all of your equipment on it.

You won't respawn with all your shit ready to go, instead you may get put back to your "mobile garage" or something and have to select another mech in your inventory and quickfit its gear and get back out into the field.

Perhaps players can bring X number of mechs with them and there are always basic mechs back at base they can get for free or for a low cost...

Making mechs set in stone, given that, has a whole different meaning when they are expendable.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Faille

A pox on computer crashes that wipe away what I've written before I can submit.

Anyway, after a heated discussion in IRC, I believe we came to the consensus that a Mech is going to be treated as a single entity in terms of its chassis. There was some talk about sub dividing it and making it modular, but that was deemed undesirable. We're still hoping to implement locational damage, but we'll have to see.

The chassis will have attributes that will govern its performance, as well as provide some restriction on what components can be put it on it.

The chassis will have slots that allow for components to be equipped. These slots will come in different types that allow for different categories of components, very similar to how its done in Eve. We'll have different Chassis that have different configurations of slots and attributes that will allow for different roles to be utilized.


Once again, nothing is set in stone yet, but this is where we're up to. Feel free to add any corrections or further thoughts.

Can you elaborate on why a single chassis was deemed preferable? It seems extremely limiting. EVE's component system is great for what it's supposed to be but whenever I think about mechwarrior or armored core or basically any mecha game I think about extreme chassis customization.

I could've missed it, but I'm just curious how the team came to that determination. You mentioned it was a heated debate but I'm curious what tipped it towards a static EVE-like component system.