endgame?!

[Larion]

I know its probably strange to ask about that in this state ( I just discovered what you guys are doing and I believe its awsome), but how did you generally think about approaching the idea of endgame or raiding?

I believe honestly that raiding and the current "end game" in mmorpgs is a design mistake that is being dragged around by ALMOST (except ofc ccp) every company. It seperates the "raiders" from the "casuals" and creates some sort of class society. On top of this i firmly believe that it is wrong to have any encounters that involve 10 people or more, because the single persons actions become to meaningless unless you structure the encounter so complicated that you will probably need to take a 3 month course just to understand the first 3 seconds.

What I would love to see is creating a way for people to advance without masses of people, but rather in smaller teams(wich would also imho enhance the social aspect and ofc demand more from the individual).

What I think also is lacking a lot in mmorpgs is the action -> reaction system that you have in EVERY fucking martial arts style i know (I have studied quite a lot of those). If I fight in a mmorpg I always to it alone. The monsters don't demand actions from me that fit theirs at all or if ... it is EXTREMLY limited. And this is what a fight should be ... action - reaction and the better and faster wins. This doesn't mean that I expect a twitch based combat system, because I believe that this doesn't belong into a regular rpg at all anyways, but real time strategy type combat instead of button mashing would surely own.

Combat is also a form of communication and this very basic aspect of it is really not being transported well at all in any mmorpg i know...

What do you people think about this?

[Cascow]

I think that without an endgame system in place, that there is nothing to seperate the people who invest time into your product from the people who don't.

The only problem I see with current endgame raiding models is the timesink aspect of it. By the time you clear the immense amount of trash then kill off a couple other baddies that you have on farm status, you have maybe 3 (tops) attempts to try a new encounter before having to call it a night.

In no way, shape, or form do I sit in the "the best equipement should go to casual group encounters" camp. Tougher encounters should generate better rewards, and an encouter that takes 40 to defeat is tougher than the encounter that takes 10 to win.

[Larion]

Originally Posted by Cascow

I think that without an endgame system in place, that there is nothing to seperate the people who invest time into your product from the people who don't.

The only problem I see with current endgame raiding models is the timesink aspect of it. By the time you clear the immense amount of trash then kill off a couple other baddies that you have on farm status, you have maybe 3 (tops) attempts to try a new encounter before having to call it a night.

In no way, shape, or form do I sit in the "the best equipement should go to casual group encounters" camp. Tougher encounters should generate better rewards, and an encouter that takes 40 to defeat is tougher than the encounter that takes 10 to win.

Exactly that is the problem... Black and white extremist thinking =p

I see that you have probably not played other "models" of mmo games that allow another type of endgame and how it helps keeping communities together and how it can also be fun! And you obviously just read the headline and did not read my post at all =p

Investing time and raiding are not at all connected in this case. What does investing time have to do with making boring raids? Can't investing time and effort be somethign differnt then sitting on your ass clicking one button over and over for hours?

I really have no idea how long you play mmogs or mmorpgs, but I sure do know that I play these games since 1997 pretty much nonstop and tbh, no game has managed to present a really well polished endgame yet that does not make the individual completly unimportant within an encounter unless he is the main tank or one of the "clerics" in whatever shape or form they exist in those games.

[Cascow]

Let's discuss, because all I really got from both your posts was "WAAAAAHHH"

Originally Posted by Larion

Exactly that is the problem... Black and white extremist thinking =p

I see that you have probably not played other "models" of mmo games that allow another type of endgame and how it helps keeping communities together and how it can also be fun! And you obviously just read the headline and did not read my post at all =p

What models are you talking about?
Are you talking about player advancement in terms of gear and skill-set?
UO? Where the time put into your character was directly represented in the quality of your character?
EQ? Where the time put into your character was directly represented in the quality of your character?
WoW? Where the time put into your character was directly represented in the quality of your character?
DAoC? Where the time put into your character was directly represented in the quality of your character?
AO? Where the time put into your character was directly represented in the quality of your character?
Eve? Where the time put into your character was directly represented in the quality of your character?
VG? Where the time put into your character was directly represented in the quality of your character?

See my point? What I'm getting from your post is "start me off in endgame gear and let me advance from there".

Originally Posted by Larion

Investing time and raiding are not at all connected in this case. What does investing time have to do with making boring raids? Can't investing time and effort be somethign differnt then sitting on your ass clicking one button over and over for hours?

You are right. Investing time and raiding are not connected. However if you want to advance past the "1 group norm", I see nothing wrong with raiding at all.

Also for someone who slammed me a couple of times about not reading your post, maybe you need to take some of your own medicine...

Never once did I say that raids were all glitter and polish. In fact I think I complained about the boring, timesinking clearing of trash and the overall repetitiveness of it all. And yes, investing time and effort SHOULD be something other than button mashing, but your original post was asking to cut to the front of the line with minimal collective effort.

Originally Posted by Larion

I really have no idea how long you play mmogs or mmorpgs, but I sure do know that I play these games since 1997 pretty much nonstop and tbh, no game has managed to present a really well polished endgame yet that does not make the individual completly unimportant within an encounter unless he is the main tank or one of the "clerics" in whatever shape or form they exist in those games.

How long I've played is really of no concern to you, but it seems important to you as I guess you assume that I'm one of the "WoW 1st MMO" mouth-breathers. Lets just say that I was getting hounded by my wife to get off the computer/console/etc. LOOONG before 1997.

As to the rest of the quote. Who cares. You don't want EVERY character to have such a huge role in the raid/encounter that every single person is needed and expected to perform at the absolute pinacle of gaming excellence. All that does is mean that there are waaay more people to fuck up the fun for everyone than there needs to be. I'm not a die-hard MT/CHO/whatever guy (despite still playing EQ as a MT), but it's a system that works. Barring a complete redesign of the way people play games, raids will natually gravitate back to this setup as it is proven and dead-simple.

As to the rest of the post about combat being communication and you wanting 40001234 different buttons to mash in a non-twitch manner....ya your right, I didn't read it.

[MVerlie]

Larion, you started out with a pretty decent topic for discussion, then you had to make an ass of yourself.

Cascow responded to your questions maturely and in response you attempt to slander his legitimacy for not seeing eye-to-eye with you.

Grow up.

[Vatoreus]

Faille, please save this thread from further viewing.

Let's keep our discussions civil and leave the drivel to the other forums please.

(not saying you're being asshats, but, you know. )

[Faille]

Yeah, this thread is on the border to deletesville, so either clean it up or don't bother

[Cascow]

Bit late in response, but work kind of shanghai'd me...

Sorry to shit up the subforums Faille, it wasn't really my intention. Feel free to delete my posts if you want (I won't, as I feel what I said deserves to stand and I've never been one to back down from people slagging on me).

However back on topic.

In terms of an endgame, there needs to be something. This has never been the forum for anything other than endgame, and it would be a crying shame to have any project to exclude that aspect from the playerbase.

The one gripe (apart from the previously mentioned timesink aspect) is that endgame raids/quests have always been very very linear. You start at the bottom and work your way up the food chain to the "boss". Hell even in quests it's like this 90% of the time.

Just once I'd like to see an endgame zone that was more than a dungeon crawl AND where loot dropped like candy from a smashed pinata. Fuck the "seeing the only good drop on an endgame mob once in 25+ kills" model right in it's ass.