Arkk's Weight Lifting Thread - Page 4

Baradak · 08-07-2009, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkk123

Deadlifts for someone who doesn't even know what exercises are for your back, and therefore has no idea of form, etc., is not a good idea.

Fuck that.

Buy Starting Strength. Read cover to cover.

Have someone watch your form. Ask them to watch lower and upper back (I round my upper back a bit, lower back straight as a board). Done. In the digital age, take a video, post it here, get a critique.

Squats and Deads are way too important to not perform.

Kasi · 08-07-2009, 09:02 AM

I would agree with Baradak. It's not really a complicated exercise at all. Compared to the squat it's downright simple. All it takes is a willingness to move a weight. If you say to not perform deadlifts than you might as well say don't do squats either, they're more complex, probably have more of a chance to injure you and have more things to watch with regards to form.

And a weight lifting regiment without squats or deadlifts is useless, so the obvious answer is do both.

It's not like you have to start out at 300 pounds. Just doing light weights at the start for the first week or two as you start to build up will be fine. Just watch your form and keep it good.

Kuriin · 08-07-2009, 09:33 AM

Saw the dead lift exercise. Doesn't look nearly as difficult as the squat. One question though, do you need to use the hook grip (I saw it on a video) for a dead lift? Or ?

Kasi · 08-07-2009, 09:39 AM

I don't use it, but I've read people do like to use it for heavier weights. I just go double overhand myself. Probably eventually I'll go to the alternating grip, where one is overhand and one is underhand, but for now I just do double overhand and it's fine. Until you get the weight you can work with up, just go with what is most comfortable to you.

Kuriin · 08-07-2009, 09:40 AM

Great. Thanks. :]

Kasi · 08-07-2009, 09:46 AM

Arkk is right that deadlift is a tough exercise. No other exercise makes me tired and sore to the same degree deadlifts do. But it also makes me feel that I've really progressed at the gym. Start nice and low (probably a bar plus two 10 pounders on the end) and just slowly move up. Make sure to keep your form good and your back straight and you'll be fine. Deadlifts is not an exercise you want to rush yourself on, but also at the same time you don't want to skip it either.

arkk123 · 08-07-2009, 10:01 AM

Lol. There are tons of people who don't like both exercises, or they can't do them due to injury, or their gym doesn't allow them to deadlift or a dozen other reasons.

You put way too much weight, no pun intended, in squats and deads. I'd still do both if I could, but there is no exercise that is mandatory. That's silly.

Kasi · 08-07-2009, 10:24 AM

While there are alternatives to deadlifts and squats that can work similar muscles, they are just not as good exercises. Leg presses for example. Personally I think doing curls is a waste of time. For a beginner weightlifter the best thing to do is focus on a few exercises they can learn well that involve as much of their kinetic chain as possible. Squats, Deadlifts, Press and Bench Press fit the bill. I would do clean if my gym had the facilities for it, but it doesn't.

Sure one can do other exercises, but they're not as useful, not as healthy (leg presses versus properly done squats for example), are not as scalable (you can do some nice squat variations, but at some point if you want to actually add more weight, you need a platform to add the weight to), don't involve the full body (and the core muscles) to the same extent and tend to make you spend longer time at the gym. Of course do them properly so you don't get injured doing them, but if done so they are much better for building strength than the alternatives, while at the same time taking less time in the gym, leaving you with more time for other stuff.

It's kinda similar to the arguments you've made in this thread about eating well. You've gone on about why make things fancy, why go through 5 minutes more to make a more tasty shake, or dress up that chicken breast, or whatnot when you can just eat the simple thing and move on. You can do 2-3 different back exercises, or 2-3 different leg exercises and spend an extra 5-10 minutes on the stuff, or you can just bear down and do squats and deadlifts and get home from the gym quicker, because whatever exercises you use to develop your core and legs/back instead of squats/deadlifts is going to take you at least double the amount of time.

arkk123 · 08-07-2009, 11:32 AM

I'm not arguing someone shouldn't do squats and deadlifts. I started doing both when I was 16. The difference between me and the person who asked about the exercises was that I had my dad with me who powerlifted for over 20 years to show me proper form. Who does he have? Pictures? A youtube video? Does anyone actually deadlift for the first time and nail the form 100%? Of course not. World class powerlifters tweak their form all the time and they've been doing it forever. Who is going to show him what he is doing wrong? A random gym rat? We all know half the people in gyms are morons who wear trashbags and shit while they run on treadmills. People in the gym can't do tricep pushdowns without jumping on top of the fucking handle let alone advising someone on proper deadlift form.

All I said was I do not think it is a good idea for a newbie to rush into doing squats and deadlifts. If he can actually have someone there week after week who knows what they are doing, then yes it is a good idea. You don't HAVE to do any exercise. I haven't trained any part of my shoulders directly except rear delts in years. I haven't done any kind of dumbell press for chest in over 5 years, and I don't do flyes. I'm no bodybuilder, but my chest and my shoulders definitely aren't lacking. I can post dozens of pictures of guys who have huge legs and backs and do not squat or deadlift.

And adding deadlifts for any experienced person is only going to take more time. Why would you ONLY do deadlifts? You'd do them and 2-3 other things. When you lift alone like me, loading the bar is a fiasco in and of itself. Well it was, since I don't do them anymore. Squats and deadlifts take longer than any other exercise individually because of the time it takes to load the weight and the recovery involved since it is more intense than anything else you'd do. No beginner is going to really want to do only squats, deads and bench presses. Would it be an okay idea for a total beginner? Probably, but it isn't hypertrophy specific and it'd probably lose their interest quick. Why pay a gym 40+ bucks a month so you can spend 20 minutes there?

Tuco · 08-07-2009, 11:47 AM

I should've noted in my short post about deadlifting that you should:

A: Start out with low weight
B: Have someone who knows what they're doing help you with your form.

You don't need to do deadlifts (Or any other single exercise for that matter), but they're a good exercise. Same story with squats.

And yeah, it can be a huge hassle to do deadlifts depending on what resources your gym has.

Kasi · 08-07-2009, 12:36 PM

Well I'm a big believer in Rippetoe's starting strength program. Personally I think the problem with too many workout programs (including ones I've been put on by people at 24 hour fitness) is they have you doing 12 different things, and with like 3-4 different day workouts and it just gets very complicated and hard to keep track of. Now it would be fine if they also gave enough benefit to make it worth it, but they don't.

I'd rather have a workout regiment where you choose 3-4 exercises for Day A, 3-4 for Day B and just alternate them on either a 3 day a week schedule or a one day on, one day off schedule. I know my wife also prefers doing it this way over the old way of doing 3-4 different free weight stuff, 5-6 different parts of their circuit machine and then a couple more things on top of it.

When we go to the gym we know we have squats to do (we do 3 days a week and back or front squats every time) and then either deadlifts and press or bench press and rows. Then at the end we pop on an alternate exercise such as dips, or thigh abductions/adductions or assisted pullups. It's simple, it takes about 50 minutes total and it works.

Now I do agree with Tuco in that deadlifts and squats need to be done with good form and started with a low weight. A couple times over the last year I've reset my weight lower in order to improve my form. Deadlifts also tend to wear you out more than any other exercise, which is why it's good to probably not do them more than 3 out of every 4 weeks. A full set of heavy deadlifts can easily wear you out for a week.

But in reading Rippetoe he has much the same arguments towards weightlifting that you have towards your diet. He feels that too many people focus too much on side assistance exercises that are just an excuse to avoid the real hard work that things like presses and deadlifts and squats entail. I tend to agree with him.

On the matter of moving weight plates around, yeah squats and deadlifts you do that the most. Try alternating sets with your wife and it's even more so in my case. But that is part of the exercise regiment, which is why things like dumbbell presses with equivalent weights is always going to be tougher than bench press with a bar. You have to bring the dumbbells over, get them in place, lie down with them not flopping around and then do your bench, after which you can get them back up and all. Makes for a tougher exercise.

MrSpitz · 08-07-2009, 12:46 PM

The problem I have always had with squats and deadlifts is that they keep me from running.

I'm a running fiend, only been seriously working out for about 15 months now, and I don't put up much weight at all (doing 5x5 I squat a whopping 120 pounds and have kind of plateaued there) but after my squat day, if I go running my thighs are killing me. If I run after I work out, the next day I'm hobbling up and down the stairs. I'm sure part of this is nutrition, but even when I load myself up with chicken and pasta (whole grain) and watch my proteins, I just can't do both.

I don't run far, I run probably about 4 miles on average (live close to a nice state park, running time varies from 30 to 90 minutes) three or four times a week and love it. So yea, I just don't do enough squats because I'd rather run. I've managed to put on a decent amount of weight though over the last year, and with my habbits it is mostly muscle of some sort.

arkk123 · 08-07-2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasi

But that is part of the exercise regiment, which is why things like dumbbell presses with equivalent weights is always going to be tougher than bench press with a bar. You have to bring the dumbbells over, get them in place, lie down with them not flopping around and then do your bench, after which you can get them back up and all. Makes for a tougher exercise.

Actually, when I do chest, I'm doing chest. I'm not trying to do chest, back, arms, legs, etc. Most people who used dumbells stop using dumbells once the weight gets too heavy because loading 150+lb dumbells onto your legs without assistance is no where near as effective as using a bar. When it gets heavy enough, you need someone to bring the second dumbell over and set it on you, and you pretty much have to drop them when its done. My thing is, you are there to do chest, not to try and keep your ass on a bench by the dumbell rack. I want my chest to be bigger from working it directly, I don't want to pull a fucking hamstring trying to make sure I don't fall on my ass.

I just don't do them because I don't really feel them. I don't like them. Everyone is different.

edit: And this doesn't go for like 80lb dumbells and shit. I mean when the progression happens in anyone who is serious about lifting, using dumbells forever just isn't practical.

Kasi · 08-07-2009, 12:55 PM

Well yeah if you run a lot, then you'd want to do heavy leg exercises like squats less, maybe just one heavy day a week. My points were more directed to those who are using the gym as a method of getting in shape, not as a way of supplementing a different athletic activity.

MrSpitz · 08-07-2009, 01:01 PM

No you are totally right Kasi, the simple exercises (edit: not simple but, learning a few core exercises for simpler workouts) are what allowed me to transition into actually enjoying weight lifting.

The running thing to me is just confusing, I want to get bigger lifting but I love running so much it holds me back. I try and do my barbell rows and pull ups to get more back involvement, and now my core is starting to get a bit too big comparatively

It was nice to be able to transition to lifting by building on something already started is all.

08-07-2009, 09:33 AM	#48 (permalink)
Kuriin Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,162	Saw the dead lift exercise. Doesn't look nearly as difficult as the squat. One question though, do you need to use the hook grip (I saw it on a video) for a dead lift? Or ? __________________ Kuriin, Death's Demise < Did it for Whitney > Live like you'll die tomorrow, Dream like you'll live forever

08-07-2009, 09:40 AM	#50 (permalink)
Kuriin Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,162	Great. Thanks. :] __________________ Kuriin, Death's Demise < Did it for Whitney > Live like you'll die tomorrow, Dream like you'll live forever

08-07-2009, 10:24 AM	#53 (permalink)
Kasi Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 865 +5 Internets	While there are alternatives to deadlifts and squats that can work similar muscles, they are just not as good exercises. Leg presses for example. Personally I think doing curls is a waste of time. For a beginner weightlifter the best thing to do is focus on a few exercises they can learn well that involve as much of their kinetic chain as possible. Squats, Deadlifts, Press and Bench Press fit the bill. I would do clean if my gym had the facilities for it, but it doesn't. Sure one can do other exercises, but they're not as useful, not as healthy (leg presses versus properly done squats for example), are not as scalable (you can do some nice squat variations, but at some point if you want to actually add more weight, you need a platform to add the weight to), don't involve the full body (and the core muscles) to the same extent and tend to make you spend longer time at the gym. Of course do them properly so you don't get injured doing them, but if done so they are much better for building strength than the alternatives, while at the same time taking less time in the gym, leaving you with more time for other stuff. It's kinda similar to the arguments you've made in this thread about eating well. You've gone on about why make things fancy, why go through 5 minutes more to make a more tasty shake, or dress up that chicken breast, or whatnot when you can just eat the simple thing and move on. You can do 2-3 different back exercises, or 2-3 different leg exercises and spend an extra 5-10 minutes on the stuff, or you can just bear down and do squats and deadlifts and get home from the gym quicker, because whatever exercises you use to develop your core and legs/back instead of squats/deadlifts is going to take you at least double the amount of time. Last edited by Kasi; 08-07-2009 at 10:28 AM..

08-07-2009, 12:46 PM	#57 (permalink)
MrSpitz look at me! i'm so cool! i'm impervious to the internet! nothing bothers me! Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 848 -39 Internets	The problem I have always had with squats and deadlifts is that they keep me from running. I'm a running fiend, only been seriously working out for about 15 months now, and I don't put up much weight at all (doing 5x5 I squat a whopping 120 pounds and have kind of plateaued there) but after my squat day, if I go running my thighs are killing me. If I run after I work out, the next day I'm hobbling up and down the stairs. I'm sure part of this is nutrition, but even when I load myself up with chicken and pasta (whole grain) and watch my proteins, I just can't do both. I don't run far, I run probably about 4 miles on average (live close to a nice state park, running time varies from 30 to 90 minutes) three or four times a week and love it. So yea, I just don't do enough squats because I'd rather run. I've managed to put on a decent amount of weight though over the last year, and with my habbits it is mostly muscle of some sort. Last edited by MrSpitz; 08-07-2009 at 12:48 PM..

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08-07-2009, 09:02 AM	#47 (permalink)
Kasi Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 865 +5 Internets	I would agree with Baradak. It's not really a complicated exercise at all. Compared to the squat it's downright simple. All it takes is a willingness to move a weight. If you say to not perform deadlifts than you might as well say don't do squats either, they're more complex, probably have more of a chance to injure you and have more things to watch with regards to form. And a weight lifting regiment without squats or deadlifts is useless, so the obvious answer is do both. It's not like you have to start out at 300 pounds. Just doing light weights at the start for the first week or two as you start to build up will be fine. Just watch your form and keep it good.

08-07-2009, 09:39 AM	#49 (permalink)
Kasi Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 865 +5 Internets	I don't use it, but I've read people do like to use it for heavier weights. I just go double overhand myself. Probably eventually I'll go to the alternating grip, where one is overhand and one is underhand, but for now I just do double overhand and it's fine. Until you get the weight you can work with up, just go with what is most comfortable to you.

08-07-2009, 09:46 AM	#51 (permalink)
Kasi Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 865 +5 Internets	Arkk is right that deadlift is a tough exercise. No other exercise makes me tired and sore to the same degree deadlifts do. But it also makes me feel that I've really progressed at the gym. Start nice and low (probably a bar plus two 10 pounders on the end) and just slowly move up. Make sure to keep your form good and your back straight and you'll be fine. Deadlifts is not an exercise you want to rush yourself on, but also at the same time you don't want to skip it either.

08-07-2009, 10:01 AM	#52 (permalink)
arkk123 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 882 -72 Internets	Lol. There are tons of people who don't like both exercises, or they can't do them due to injury, or their gym doesn't allow them to deadlift or a dozen other reasons. You put way too much weight, no pun intended, in squats and deads. I'd still do both if I could, but there is no exercise that is mandatory. That's silly.

08-07-2009, 11:32 AM	#54 (permalink)
arkk123 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 882 -72 Internets	I'm not arguing someone shouldn't do squats and deadlifts. I started doing both when I was 16. The difference between me and the person who asked about the exercises was that I had my dad with me who powerlifted for over 20 years to show me proper form. Who does he have? Pictures? A youtube video? Does anyone actually deadlift for the first time and nail the form 100%? Of course not. World class powerlifters tweak their form all the time and they've been doing it forever. Who is going to show him what he is doing wrong? A random gym rat? We all know half the people in gyms are morons who wear trashbags and shit while they run on treadmills. People in the gym can't do tricep pushdowns without jumping on top of the fucking handle let alone advising someone on proper deadlift form. All I said was I do not think it is a good idea for a newbie to rush into doing squats and deadlifts. If he can actually have someone there week after week who knows what they are doing, then yes it is a good idea. You don't HAVE to do any exercise. I haven't trained any part of my shoulders directly except rear delts in years. I haven't done any kind of dumbell press for chest in over 5 years, and I don't do flyes. I'm no bodybuilder, but my chest and my shoulders definitely aren't lacking. I can post dozens of pictures of guys who have huge legs and backs and do not squat or deadlift. And adding deadlifts for any experienced person is only going to take more time. Why would you ONLY do deadlifts? You'd do them and 2-3 other things. When you lift alone like me, loading the bar is a fiasco in and of itself. Well it was, since I don't do them anymore. Squats and deadlifts take longer than any other exercise individually because of the time it takes to load the weight and the recovery involved since it is more intense than anything else you'd do. No beginner is going to really want to do only squats, deads and bench presses. Would it be an okay idea for a total beginner? Probably, but it isn't hypertrophy specific and it'd probably lose their interest quick. Why pay a gym 40+ bucks a month so you can spend 20 minutes there?

08-07-2009, 11:47 AM	#55 (permalink)
Tuco Forum Janitor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 10,721 +75 Internets	I should've noted in my short post about deadlifting that you should: A: Start out with low weight B: Have someone who knows what they're doing help you with your form. You don't need to do deadlifts (Or any other single exercise for that matter), but they're a good exercise. Same story with squats. And yeah, it can be a huge hassle to do deadlifts depending on what resources your gym has.

08-07-2009, 12:36 PM	#56 (permalink)
Kasi Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 865 +5 Internets	Well I'm a big believer in Rippetoe's starting strength program. Personally I think the problem with too many workout programs (including ones I've been put on by people at 24 hour fitness) is they have you doing 12 different things, and with like 3-4 different day workouts and it just gets very complicated and hard to keep track of. Now it would be fine if they also gave enough benefit to make it worth it, but they don't. I'd rather have a workout regiment where you choose 3-4 exercises for Day A, 3-4 for Day B and just alternate them on either a 3 day a week schedule or a one day on, one day off schedule. I know my wife also prefers doing it this way over the old way of doing 3-4 different free weight stuff, 5-6 different parts of their circuit machine and then a couple more things on top of it. When we go to the gym we know we have squats to do (we do 3 days a week and back or front squats every time) and then either deadlifts and press or bench press and rows. Then at the end we pop on an alternate exercise such as dips, or thigh abductions/adductions or assisted pullups. It's simple, it takes about 50 minutes total and it works. Now I do agree with Tuco in that deadlifts and squats need to be done with good form and started with a low weight. A couple times over the last year I've reset my weight lower in order to improve my form. Deadlifts also tend to wear you out more than any other exercise, which is why it's good to probably not do them more than 3 out of every 4 weeks. A full set of heavy deadlifts can easily wear you out for a week. But in reading Rippetoe he has much the same arguments towards weightlifting that you have towards your diet. He feels that too many people focus too much on side assistance exercises that are just an excuse to avoid the real hard work that things like presses and deadlifts and squats entail. I tend to agree with him. On the matter of moving weight plates around, yeah squats and deadlifts you do that the most. Try alternating sets with your wife and it's even more so in my case. But that is part of the exercise regiment, which is why things like dumbbell presses with equivalent weights is always going to be tougher than bench press with a bar. You have to bring the dumbbells over, get them in place, lie down with them not flopping around and then do your bench, after which you can get them back up and all. Makes for a tougher exercise.

08-07-2009, 12:55 PM	#59 (permalink)
Kasi Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 865 +5 Internets	Well yeah if you run a lot, then you'd want to do heavy leg exercises like squats less, maybe just one heavy day a week. My points were more directed to those who are using the gym as a method of getting in shape, not as a way of supplementing a different athletic activity.

08-07-2009, 01:01 PM	#60 (permalink)
MrSpitz look at me! i'm so cool! i'm impervious to the internet! nothing bothers me! Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 848 -39 Internets	No you are totally right Kasi, the simple exercises (edit: not simple but, learning a few core exercises for simpler workouts) are what allowed me to transition into actually enjoying weight lifting. The running thing to me is just confusing, I want to get bigger lifting but I love running so much it holds me back. I try and do my barbell rows and pull ups to get more back involvement, and now my core is starting to get a bit too big comparatively It was nice to be able to transition to lifting by building on something already started is all.