'07-'08 NBA Playoffs

[Kolle]

there's a lot of ways to compare, but if you do it by nba finals:

Bird - 3 wins, 2 losses

Magic - 5 wins, 4 losses

Kobe - 3 wins, 1 loss, +1 win or loss


obviously that can't be the only thing considered. some players have several rings and aren't anywhere near as good as those three.

[Akileese]

I wasn't talking about finals, I was just talking about how the teams dominated the 80s.

I stated my main reason why I felt Bird and Magic were better than Kobe. Meh, it's been a really long weekend. I just don't see how anyone can say at this point Kobe is better than any of the all time greats.

Also, do you see anyone outside of the TV guys and writers comparing him to Jordan? The only thing he has that Jordan has is the killer instinct. He smells blood in the water and goes for the kill. This is something Jordan was obviously famous for. To me, that's about it. I don't want this to become a fucking Jordan/Kobe comparison thread though. I don't think there's much to compare. Kobe said it best. "It's Michael. He's the greatest to ever play the game. Just let me be me." I couldn't agree more.

That being said, I think he still has a ways to go before he can crack even the lowest pedestal of all time greats.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Akileese

I wasn't talking about finals, I was just talking about how the teams dominated the 80s.

You also have to consider the competition. It's the same reason that Wilt isn't heralded as the best person to ever play a sport despite so thoroughly dominating it when he did play.

[Akileese]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

You also have to consider the competition. It's the same reason that Wilt isn't heralded as the best person to ever play a sport despite so thoroughly dominating it when he did play.

The 80s were far and away the best era of the sport for numerous reasons. Lack of expansions made the best teams deeper and also the worst teams were better. A bottom of the league team in the 80s could probably be a 4 or 5 seed in the east. It's fucking sad.

[Adam12]

Originally Posted by Akileese

The 80s were far and away the best era of the sport for numerous reasons. Lack of expansions made the best teams deeper and also the worst teams were better. A bottom of the league team in the 80s could probably be a 4 or 5 seed in the east. It's fucking sad.

No offense, but when I hear this shit I can't help but think that you're talking out of your ass. This includes the the ESPN guy, or anyone who tries to compare individual players from different eras. Kobe's a great player, and would have been great in any era. Trying to compare him with players he never played with/against is retarded though, and this goes for any sport. Just let the great players be great, and leave it at that.

[Akileese]

Originally Posted by Adam12

No offense, but when I hear this shit I can't help but think that you're talking out of your ass. This includes the the ESPN guy, or anyone who tries to compare individual players from different eras. Kobe's a great player, and would have been great in any era. Trying to compare him with players he never played with/against is retarded though, and this goes for any sport. Just let the great players be great, and leave it at that.

So...how does me saying the 80s were better than any era of the sport have to do with Kobe? Didn't I just say he SHOULDN'T be compared to Jordan and that no one should? I'm saying he shouldn't be compared to players from the other eras, but that he's definitely not on their levels yet. I mean, as shitty as it is to say, he's still yet to win a title without Shaq. How can you say he's an all time great if he's never been able to win a title as the franchise player of a team?

That was just confusing man. I totally didn't try to compare Kobe or Jordan to anyone. All I was saying was that his accomplishments and his career don't warrant him being an all time great yet. I mean fuck, I even quoted Kobe saying that he shouldn't be compared to anyone and he should be remembered for what he does.

That being said. Yes, the 80s were still better than any era. I just don't know why you quoted that to bring up a Kobe argument.

edit: Quoting myself two posts above:

Also, do you see anyone outside of the TV guys and writers comparing him to Jordan? The only thing he has that Jordan has is the killer instinct. He smells blood in the water and goes for the kill. This is something Jordan was obviously famous for. To me, that's about it. I don't want this to become a fucking Jordan/Kobe comparison thread though. I don't think there's much to compare. Kobe said it best. "It's Michael. He's the greatest to ever play the game. Just let me be me." I couldn't agree more.

I didn't try to compare him to anyone dude. There's the proof.

[Adam12]

Yeah, I didn't mean to single you, or the quote that I replied to out in particular, just the entire argument. I'm coming from the same side you are in this one, I was watching ESPN when Legler or whoever said this shit, and it's gotten far beyond old. Trying to compare players or teams from different eras is just tiresome and pointless.

Kobe himself told off a reporter this week when she asked him if he had surpassed Jordan yet. At first he was nice about it, but then she started reeling off stat after stat trying to convince Kobe, so he eventually just told her to stop it, "he's Michael, I'm Kobe. Let me be Kobe."

[Akileese]

Bill Simmons made this point about Jordan that I thought is worthy of discussion. Take 90s Jordan (assuming he didn't take the 2 year break for ....baseball/gambling) and throw him in the league as it is now.

Remember, in the 90s the game was a lot more physical and there was no hand check rules. Bill said he thinks Jordan would average 45 points a game. I'm actually inclined to agree with him on this. Your thoughts? I think it's interesting since he's a 90s era player and the game has changed so much. I think 45 is in range for him.

[Sunder]

Originally Posted by Akileese

Bill Simmons made this point about Jordan that I thought is worthy of discussion. Take 90s Jordan (assuming he didn't take the 2 year break for ....baseball/gambling) and throw him in the league as it is now.

Remember, in the 90s the game was a lot more physical and there was no hand check rules. Bill said he thinks Jordan would average 45 points a game. I'm actually inclined to agree with him on this. Your thoughts? I think it's interesting since he's a 90s era player and the game has changed so much. I think 45 is in range for him.

Jordan would easily average 40. Bird would do the same. Not able to hand-check him as he faces the basket? Too easy for him. Not able to hand-check Magic at the top of the key? He'd average a triple-double for the season. And the availability of zone defense now wouldn't affect these guys. They could easily shoot over a zone defense without a second thought.

[kcxiv]

eh, i dont know about that. Zone defense wasnt allowed back then. Zone makes it harder for players to attack the basket. I am not saying Jordan wouldnt be great. Just saying we dont know exactly what would happen.

[Akileese]

Michael Jordan Statistics - Basketball-Reference.com

Jordan's career number. He was a 50 percent shooter basically (rounding up from 497) and an 83 percent free throw shooter. Roughly 33 from the three line, but that was never his thing anyways. He could pull over 40 without question. It's quite amazing though when you look at the stars per year from like 86-87 to 92-93. He averaged over 30 a game every year and only once did he come close to not pulling it off.

[Gumpf]

He probably could average 45. He could have averaged 45 when he played too. The thing is, he didn't have dump excessive amounts of points on other teams to win, and averaging 45 doesn't necessarily mean he's winning, which is I think what he was all about?

[Jooka]

The defense of this age different than that of Magic/Bird era so the comparison can't be made really. Not sure where I stand on the issue. Kobe is insane good, best ever? Cant quite swallow that yet. Kobe has brought the level of play to the Lakers this year to a pretty damn high standard. There playoff run this year has been fucking awesome. Boston has there work cut out for them, not sure they can work it if Lakers can bring one game to the Celtics floor and win.


*EDIT* Im routing for the Lakers since I live on the west coast or whatever but in reality I just like seeing high level of play and only watch basketball from about the 2nd round on. Will go watch a Blazers game once or twice a year since I know the mascot and get good tickets for it.

[Pharazon]

They've been trying to find the next Jordan for the last 15 years. Kobe is without a doubt the closest thing we've seen to him. Name any facet of Jordan's game that you think is better than Kobe's, and I'm not sure I'd agree. Was Jordan's jumper better? Not really. Better ball handler? Nope. Passer? Possibly, but Kobe has even stepped up that part of his game this year.

And like you said, they're both ultra competetive. There was a great article on Kobe in the last SI issue, showing exactly how competetive he is. All he cares about is basketball and being the best at it. As one example, there was some guy on his high school team that Kobe would keep after practice every day to practice his moves on 1 on 1. The guy said the best he ever did was lose to Kobe 100-12, and "Kobe is still probably pissed he gave up double digits to me." Kobe does the same thing now that he's in the NBA, he just never wants to stop playing. He was so good coming out of high school, that Jerry West watched him practice for 20 minutes before they drafted him and said, "I've seen enough, he's better than anybody we have on our team now."

I don't think the league is less talented now than it was in the 80's either. There's only like 4 more teams in the league now than there were then but there's a much bigger pool of talent to find players in with all the foreign players making it in the league. I do think that there's less discipline and more selfishness, because the league caters so much to stars and because all the guys coming out of school early dwarfs the number that did back then. Less fundamentals. What it boils down to is I think the bad teams can look real ugly at times (usually much younger teams than you'd see in the 80's), but the good disciplined / veteran teams could hang with anybody in the 80's.

On the Kobe vs. Jordan thing, I think Kobe would have to win 4 more titles before people could really start a serious discussion. He definitely has the talent though to at the least be mentioned with Jordan.

[Adam12]

I'd give the defensive edge to Michael without much argument. Kobe is great on the defensive end, but Michael was incredible. The last championship run team was sick (Scottie was incredible on D, Harper, and Rodman grabbing the boards, oh shit).