Grappling.

[Zeste]

Originally Posted by Darph

Rickson is an amazing fellow. 15 in the club is a decent size. It's about the same size as our club here at SMU in Dallas.



I wear a judo-gi, probably very similar to what you wore if you started way back then. Modern BJJ gi's are a joke and i'd never pay for that garbage.

A lot of my "tough guy" friends didn't want to wear a gi either, until i absolutely thrashed them repeatedly, then they realized they should have more respect and not be disillusioned with the gi because of thi chi and other "McDojo" bullshit arts.

The gi's we used were Machado brand, they were extremely nice. Hand made in brazil by the Machado Brothers family.

[krozman]

Dont know what you mean about modern Gi's, I bought an official Rickson Gracie one in 1997 and other than some stains due to use, theres no tears anywhere.

[Lyrical]

In the neighborhoods I grew up in, they were very racially charged. There were Italian, Black and Hispanic areas. If you walked in the wrong area, you might be attacked by ten or more people at once. We lived near NYC, and at that time, the whole area was like that. And if you were in a neutral area and alone, you were dead meat. Having been attacked for being the wrong race many times, you learn you have two choices. Learn to fight, or learn to run fast. When you are faced with multiple attackers and some of them are armed, discretion is the better part of valor. Even though we moved away from those areas by the time I was a senior in high school, this is what life was like for me every day from elementary school until the age of 17. So I knew I better learn how to defend myself.

After trying out different things (boxing and Tae Kwon Do), American Kenpo Karate is what I settled on. I found I could relate to the instructors, and was allowed to criticize the system without being ostracized. I didn't think boxing was complete enough for street fighting. And yes, before I knew that Tae Kwon Do is the least respected martial art, I took it. It didn't seem very realistic. The practices went two hours (one hour of stretching and one hour of kicking). I don't know of too many times in the street someone is going to give you an hour to stretch before they attack. Also, I didn't like how you weren't allowed to question their technique. You either do it their way, or you do calisthenics 'til you puke. Asking questions was a sign of disrepect. God forbid you want to understand what you are doing, or even use your head! The final straw is when I had to work late. I rushed to practice, and had five minutes to stretch. They had us doing heel hook kicks to the head, and I ripped my groin. I couldn't practice for six months, and didn't think the idea of stretching for 45 to 60 mins before fighting was very practical. What I liked about Kenpo is that we use our fists alot, and the instructor (who was one of Parker's original students) said that the system was created for street fighting first and foremost. He didn't even want us to stretch before practice, and wanted us to be ready to fight with no notice.

If I had time to do it again, I'd train in grappling also. I have just a passing knowledge of it (enough to get out of trouble). Unlike traditional martial arts, Kenpo is an open system. Not only do we train in using staves, baseball bats and clubs, but they have also added knife and gun forms (kind of like in Equilibrium). And with the advent of MMA, my school has done what not many striking schools would even think of. They cut the school in half, and brought in some BJJ black belts. Half the system is now devoted to grappling, when it used to be all striking.

We've since moved away from my original school, and since Kenpo studios are setup as laboratories, every school is different. Parker set the system up to be evolving, and students and black belts are allowed to tailor the system at their studio as you see fit. So eventually the system mutates so much that you have to relearn from scratch. From white belt to black belt took me almost five years, and if I were to start in a new system, if it has mutated alot, could take up to an additional four years.

I'd like to grapple one day (as I wrestled a little in high school), but with a wife and kid and rl resposibilities, I am thinking my days of staying in the studio every night until ten or eleven is over. I still practice three times a week, but can't see doing the six day a week thing I did when I was younger and had no resposibility.

For those of you that are grappling, how many times a week does it take to develop decent skills? I am not sure I could scrape together more than two days a week (considering three days goes to Karate and two to weights already).

[Darph]

Originally Posted by krozman

Dont know what you mean about modern Gi's, I bought an official Rickson Gracie one in 1997 and other than some stains due to use, theres no tears anywhere.

Modern BJJ Gi's as of about 2004+ are total trash: easily ripped, thin, stupid colors, over-patched, etc.

I don't think anyone considers 97 "modern" in BJJ terms. Most of those guys are black belts by now.

[Darph]

Originally Posted by Lyrical

stuff

Cool story. I've met some hardcore Kenpo guys, but i've also met some of the most massive pussies ever.

There's a guy in my judo club who is blackbelt in both. He kicks as hard as the muay thai guys at our gym.

If you want to grapple, 2 times a week is fine. It helps to be a fan of the sport, watch UFC's, etc.
It will take a loong time to get your black belt though.

[Lucificate]

Ya, for over 5 years when I was in Gainesville I trained in MMA with a focus on BJJ and wrestling with the F2 Fight Team - the last few years as an instructor. We had close ties with Gracie Barra Orlando (Marcio Simas) and Gordon Hester. Was an awesome time of my life. Fought MMA twice, once amateur and once pro. Posted the vid of my first fight in an older MMA thread here. I only fought in small local shows, but we had several guys with King of the Cage experience. A guy very close to our team, Seth Petruzelli, fought Bob Sapp in K1 and was on TUF - didnt have great results in UFC but he is excellent at a lot of stuff. Some guys fought in Pancrase as well, that was a lot of years back, though.

I havent trained in about 6 months. Been caught up in getting into "real life" after school and moving back to my hometown. I did just get the number of a guy around here who apparently has a ring and mats at his house and gets people together to practice. I think they even get guys fights in Biloxi. Really looking forward to getting back into it.

I can't recommend anything more than MMA (or even just BJJ or sub wrestling) for fitness purposes and fight skill purposes. And of course general fun purposes. At least for me it has been one of the best things I have done in my life.

I would recommend strength and cardio training on the side to get the most out of it, but obviously it can be tough to find the time to get that into things.

If anyone wants to talk MMA or has questions about BJJ or whatever, just send me a message. It remains a huge part of my life.

[Ronne]

So how well does any of this stuff translate to a real fight? I can't imagine going for a key lock or a guillotine choke is really ever going to be higher on my priority list in a fight than headbutting and ball crushing. Call me dirty, but I don't start fights, nor have I lost though.

[Laven]

Anyone think mayweather could last long in a MMA environment at age 30?
Link

[Blumpster]

Yah, seriously. Swift nut kick, knee to the face while he's doubling over, kick him in the stomach a couple times (or in the face if you really hate the guy) while he's down and then walk away. Confrontation over and chances are he stays the fuck away from you.

[Frieza_Prexus]

So how well does any of this stuff translate to a real fight?

To give the blanket cop-out answer: It's all about the user of said technique.

That said, a lot also depends on the circumstances. Can you ground fight in that environment? Does he have buddies? Do you have buddies? Does he outweigh you by 150 lbs? Etc. Etc.

What technique you'd use is dependent upon your goal for a fight. For example, I doubt you'd try to kill your buddy who has had just a bit too much to drink and needs to have some sense knocked into him. Instead, a simple naked choke could pass him out/subdue him or whatever.

Or if you didn't want to knock out poor Steve a simple scarf hold could pin him until he realizes he's being a douche bag.

I can't imagine going for a key lock or a guillotine choke is really ever going to be higher on my priority list in a fight than head-butting and ball crushing.

A common idea that many people have when considering training is that they could opt out years of hard work by just smacking the guys balls around. It's a good idea in theory and it can work, but just remember, the groin (and eyes) are some of the most naturally well defended places on your body both from a reflex point of view and a location point of view. Someone tries to groin shot you? $5 says your hands go down there pretty fast and if you're already on edge you've a good chance of stopping said ball smacking.

Also consider that if the other guy knows what he's doing you as an untrained ball-grabber will be fighting someone that actively knows exactly how to guard against and counter said ball-grabbing. (How many times can I say ball-grabbing before I turn the thread gay?)

Finally, what if someone is non responsive to ball-crushing pain say some jacked-up crack head? Many chokes work, not because they hurt, but because they deny blood to the brain which makes you pass out. I've seen (and done so myself when I was being too stupid to tap) many people grappling only to slump to the floor a few seconds later because they were being choked.

As for people talking about various styles I tend to place more emphasis on the person. I don't care if granny does Tai Chi in the park or practices hardcore BJJ she's still granny and is going to break her hip when thug01 kicks her down the stairs.

That said, there are some styles which tend to produce a disproportionate number of ninjas wannabes. In my experience, Tae Kwon Do, Akido, and most Kung Fu's are the worst offenders. Of course public enemy number one is an actual ninjitsu school. If you want to learn espionage go join the FBI or the army.

Styles that I'd rate somewhere in the middle as neither sucktastic or totally awesome are Karate, Boxing, and any other pure striking or pure grappling art. Now before some boxer (or pure grappler) challenges me to duel to the death I say that because they are incomplete in the sense that to be complete a system needs to embrace both striking and grappling.

And of course, the best styles are the ones that do embrace both aspects and treat them as tools to be used in certain situations as opposed to ways of life never to be altered or questioned.

However, like I said, sometimes even a crappy style will produce some extremely talented fighters. I've seen a few Kung Fu guys that could eat my lunch three times over.

I'm not even sure what I want in a martial art. but I have a long time to decide.

For you guys that are considering training, there are three things you need to do. Of course, this is assuming you want to learn self defense and not something gay like *dramatic voice* "the way of the nunchaku."

First, find a school that seems decent and talk to the instructors. If they say you get out what you put in that's a big plus. Anyone who is honest about fighting being difficult gets a gold star. If they try to fill your head with why their tiger style is better than your dragon style you need to run fast and far. A good instructor can tell you where their system is strong. An excellent instructor will tell you where you will find weaknesses.

Second, watch the students sparring. If they don't spar or if they're all pussies just walk. Also, watch both the kids and the adults. A lot of schools have far more kids yet they are still very good at what they do. While too many wee ones can be a turn off don't let it make you write the school off.

Third, scrutinize their payment options. If they try to sell you 87 years at once for this low low offer of only XXX you probably should run. If they offer longer term plans that's one thing. If they try to lock you into a huge commitment that's another.

One of the biggest things you should value in a school/instructor is honesty. If they don't mind when you question them, and encourage independent thinking they're probably very good at what they do.

[Jimmy Carter wuwu]

I've done Muay thai for one year now. Its my favorite art form ive enoyed practicing. I used to think BJJ was retarded and looked like pussy wrestling until I took 5 months of it, now I got major respect for anyone who does it. Basically IMO if you want to make it in MMA or even try local fights, almost every fight either it be a dispute at a bar or inside a cage, 8/10 it ends on the ground. And an untrained fighter would go straight for ground and pound, while a BJJ student would set up a good guard and counter it within seconds.

[Darph]

Originally Posted by Ronne

So how well does any of this stuff translate to a real fight? I can't imagine going for a key lock or a guillotine choke is really ever going to be higher on my priority list in a fight than headbutting and ball crushing. Call me dirty, but I don't start fights, nor have I lost though.

Position and Control, basically.

Risk Rating of being knocked silly when in a fight:
Flailing about like retard with 200lb drunk: High.
Putting drunk into Clinch and knee/elbow/uppercuting: Low
Taking retard down and ground-n-pounding: Extremely Low


I got into a fight about a month ago and this is how it went:
(disclaimer: I'm not trying to sound like a bad ass, just giving an example)

The guy was a typical yuppie, drove a BMW, and wanted to show off in front of his girlfriend. He had big muscles but it was obvious he was a curl-monkey, not an athlete. Soo.. I hit him, took him down and elbowed and punched him in the face about 25 times. He had no chance of getting away once I got a grip on him. He let me mount him. He didn't break down my posture once I was on top so I seriously just had free reign, I even started laughing because i was just popping the shit out of him and there was nothing he could do. If i had mounted one of my training buds they would have quickly tried to minimize my ability to drop back and unload, but he just took it.

In any grappling art you learn position before submission, and this is the primary translation to "RL" fights. If someone (untrained) managed to take me down, they'd go right into my guard and probably be swept the second they tried to punch.

Honestly, unless someone really pissed me off or attacked me seriously, I probably wouldn't try to break their arm. Keylocks and Triangles are really good for controlling people though.

Also, note that a grappler often has a lot more explosiveness and power than your typical gym weight lifter. Combined with good technique you can easily dominate most situations as long as you don't lose your head or get caught coming in. (Punch then clinch, the Fedor way.)

[arkk91]

Going to the ground in a bar fight would be the stupidest shit you can do.

Has anyone ever been in a bar fight? Has anyone ever SEEN a bar fight?

The first thing you are taught when learning how to fight in real world situations is to be aware of your surroundings. Guys don't go to bars by themselves, so chances are the dude you are fighting is with his friends.

Take him to the ground so you can't see what is going on behind/on top of you. Smart

Street fights are over in less than 15 seconds usually. All these people talking about how they'd control people on the ground if someone took them down in a real fight are ridiculous. It is almost laughable. Yeah, people are just gonna stand around and watch while you have some dude in your guard and position for a triangle? LMAO.

[Kaxmax]

I bounced at a college bar for two years while in school. You'd be amazed at how many bar fights end up with two morons rolling around on the ground while their buddies stand around and posture.

[arkk91]

Originally Posted by Kaxmax

I bounced at a college bar for two years while in school. You'd be amazed at how many bar fights end up with two morons rolling around on the ground while their buddies stand around and posture.

I own 2 bars in philly, one at the jersey shore. You'd be amazed at how often people get knocked silly in under a minute, or get rolled on, or get hit with a bottle, or it goes to the ground and someone gets stomped by someone's friends. Thankfully there is almost never fights at my places, and I've never seen an ambulance.

Some places down the shore are fight club every time they are busy. To even go out down there you can be assured you'll see SOMETHING.