2007 English Premier League

[slitz]

I think what he means is that Torres, while imo an excellent striker, is a box player. Except for the stuff he do in the box (which is a lot), he doesn't really contribute as much as other modern offensive players (Totti, Ronaldo, Messi, Ibrahimovic, Ronaldinho and Henry in his former glory) in the game play.
Torres isn't as important to Liverpool as Ronaldo is to Man U, Messi is to Barcelona, Ibra is to Inter, Ronaldinho was to Barca and Henry was to Arsenal.
I wouldn't stretch is as far as to say that he didn't score any spectacular goals but calling people retards because they don't agree with your opinion is somewhat retarded...

I'm also getting really fucking tired of people using the "well you're American, you don't know shit about football!" argument. It belongs in a dark spot where the sun don't shine along with the "you're not a real fan!", "you haven't seen as many games as I have!" and "have you even played football?" type of arguments.

[Ossoi]

Originally Posted by slitz

I think what he means is that Torres, while imo an excellent striker, is a box player. Except for the stuff he do in the box (which is a lot), he doesn't really contribute as much as other modern offensive players (Totti, Ronaldo, Messi, Ibrahimovic, Ronaldinho and Henry in his former glory) in the game play.
Torres isn't as important to Liverpool as Ronaldo is to Man U, Messi is to Barcelona, Ibra is to Inter, Ronaldinho was to Barca and Henry was to Arsenal.
I wouldn't stretch is as far as to say that he didn't score any spectacular goals but calling people retards because they don't agree with your opinion is somewhat retarded...

I called him a retard because he said none of Torres's goals were memorable.

Think this video is the best possible answer though:

YouTube - fernando torres all 28 goals so far for liverpool el nino

As for your comparisons, you're comparing a centre forward to: a winger, an attacking midfielder, a centre-forward, an attacking midfielder and a cf/wing forward.

For a euro your football knowledge is on a par with the Americans, it's a centre forwards job to get in the box and finish chances, a classic modern example would be Ruud van Nistelrooy who is a supreme finisher but hugely limited outside the box. Torres has the pace and the skill to be so much more than a finisher, as evidenced by the above video which sees him beating entire defences, scoring from 30yds etc etc

"but a lot of the time its some winger getting to the touchline with the ball and pulling it back to Torres for him to finish it off from 6yards"

Do you even watch Liverpool play?

For a start LFC lack proper/good wingers, the closest they've got is Pennant who is average and has been out the team lately. Kewell is injured and will never be as good as he was at Leeds. Babel is raw talent but his favoured position is CF, as he's a right-footer playing on the left he will always prefer to cut inside rather than get to the touchline. As for Dirk Kuyt on the RW..dont really need to say anymore than that, Wenger summed up what he brings to the team when he called him a "second right-back"

[BembianEQ]

I blame America not liking soccer/futbol/football ENTIRELY on the fact that if we pretend to like it the rest of the world becomes elitist and pushes our face in the mud.

GIVE US A CHANCE YOU BULLIES

[Faille]

Torres is the best striker in the world atm, don't think anyone can seriously argue that. Ronaldo may be a better player, harder to say comparing 2 different positions, and while Ronaldo has scored more goals, he also takes free kicks and penalties.

The one worry I have going into the Chelsea game is that we may be a little too confident having beaten them in 2 semi's already and having decent enough league games so far this season.

As for why liverpool are better in Europe then the league, its that they are very different competitions. Champions league has probably 1/4 the games of the EPL and you can afford to lose more of them then you can in the EPL and still win it. Lose more then 5 games in the EPL and you are pretty much out of the running.

[slitz]

Originally Posted by Ossoi

As for your comparisons, you're comparing a centre forward to: a winger, an attacking midfielder, a centre-forward, an attacking midfielder and a cf/wing forward.

Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Messi are still forwards, just in different starting positions and probably a bit more free roles than what a center as Torres have. I wouldn't say Torres position limits his game play, I would however say that his game play limits his positions and that's exactly why (imo) he isn't as important to the team as the players I mentioned and also the reason he's a centre forward (he's doing it great though).

For a euro your football knowledge is on a par with the Americans, it's a centre forwards job to get in the box and finish chances, a classic modern example would be Ruud van Nistelrooy who is a supreme finisher but hugely limited outside the box. Torres has the pace and the skill to be so much more than a finisher, as evidenced by the above video which sees him beating entire defences, scoring from 30yds etc etc

The good old "I know football better than you!" argument. I guess I should have expected more.
Yes I'm full aware of the fact that centre forwards jobs is to be inside the box, but I would still say they are limited to that because of their game play / skill whatever.
Ibrahimovic, Tott and Drogba are excellent examples of awesome centre forwards that still participate in the game play in a way that makes them extremely important to their teams. That's my whole point.
Nistelrooy is a excellent box player, and while I'm not trying to undermine the importance of scoring and a good box player, he's just that and nothing else. A box player and so is Torres.

[Zanna'Dar]

People seem to get confused about strikers and forwards. Forward does not automatically mean a striker; a striker can make a forward and vice versa but they are two very different positions/roles.

Pure strikers: Ruud Van N., Drogba(has some limited forward abilities), Torres, Inzaghi, Trezeguet, Adriano, Pauleta,

Pure forwards: Messi, C. Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Pato,Robinho, Joe Cole, Kalou

And there is another set of players who can play both as a striker and as a forward supporting the striker; such as Rooney, Henry, Eto'o, David Villa, Raul. This type of players is not always present in the box but they may also have a supporting role; like Raul & RVN, Henry & Eto'o, C. Ronaldo & Rooney, Joe Cole & Drogba, Totti & Mancini and so on.

Both positions require different sets of skills. Finishing is huge for strikers as they see more of the ball in the box; when you are a forward, you surely need some finishing. However your passing, crosses and even set pieces should also do superb (which requires a good tecnique).

So, you guys need to stop the bullshit claiming Torres is merely mediocre. Why did Liverpool get the guy? Yeah; to score goals and he does a great job. So wtf is this shit about him not scoring spectacular goals? Who gives a shit? A spectacular goal doesn't count for 2 goals, does it?

[slitz]

Originally Posted by Zanna'Dar

People seem to get confused about strikers and forwards. Forward does not automatically mean a striker; a striker can make a forward and vice versa but they are two very different positions/roles.

Don't think I confused this at all, since the only time I mentioned striker was when I said Torres was a great Striker.
Not sure it was directed at me however...

So, you guys need to stop the bullshit claiming Torres is merely mediocre. Why did Liverpool get the guy? Yeah; to score goals and he does a great job. So wtf is this shit about him not scoring spectacular goals? Who gives a shit? A spectacular goal doesn't count for 2 goals, does it?

I don't think anyone claimed that Torres is mediocre? He's one of the best strikers in the world (probably the best atm) and he's also one of the best forwards, but I would still rate 10-15 forwards higher than him. Does this mean he's mediocre? Nope it doesn't.

While some people watch football to see their team win and find that the most important part of being a fan, people also need to realize that this may or may not be the reason why someone else might be watching football. Some people watch football for the beauty of the sport in itself. I for one favor watching Arsenal, Barcelona, Real Madrid and Inter for that reason alone while I watch "my" national league team Malmö FF for the first reason.
In that sense, if you're watching football for the beauty of it, Nistelrooy, Inzaghi, Torres (even though I think so in Torres case) and Trezeguet aren't really spectacular players even though they score (or scored) a lot of goals...
With that said, of course someone is entitled to the opinion that Torres isn't a spectacular player. That doesn't mean he or she lack the knowledge of how football work nor does it mean that they are wrong, people just view football differently or for different reasons.
Not really hard to understand to be honest.

I guess this may not be as common in England, Spain and Italy since your national league is good enough already, but it's pretty common in the "lesser" football nations, to have a national league team you follow with your heart while having international teams that you follow for the pure beauty.

[Faille]

I still can't decide which is my favourite Torres goal. His first one against Chelsea when he ran onto his wrong side before slotting into the far post, or the goal against Newcastle when he faked out the keeper without even touching the ball.

[Ossoi]

Those two are probably my favourite as well, think the Chelsea one edges it though because it was his first, it was against a quality team and until that moment that UK press were hoping he would go on a Crouch-esque run of games without scoring.

And Slitz should really be comparing Gerrard to the players he's already mentioned as he is really the one that fills that playmaker for Liverpool. What should be mentioned is the amazing partnership he's built with Torres, so many of his goals have come from assists from Gerrard and as a duo they're probably untouchable in World football right now.

[slitz]

Originally Posted by Ossoi

And Slitz should really be comparing Gerrard to the players he's already mentioned as he is really the one that fills that playmaker for Liverpool. What should be mentioned is the amazing partnership he's built with Torres, so many of his goals have come from assists from Gerrard and as a duo they're probably untouchable in World football right now.

I wouldn't compare Gerrard with them since I would say he's a "normal" midfielder. Not claiming he isn't as good offensively as those players, but because he's a machine defensively as well 8)

[Ossoi]

Liverpool are currently lining up 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard behind Torres as an advanced attacking midfielder/second striker, which funnily enough is the same position the likes of Ronaldhino and Kaka play in...like I said, do you actually watch Liverpool play?

[Kiely]

Well Zar touches on this, he's right - statistics will never explain it.

A huge component is what they do when they don't have the ball, how they time runs, how they trick defenders, how they push the offside limits, how they deceive in set pieces, how they evade markers and how they can find space, or just simply dropping back and having "the vision" of your teammates with improbably odds.
If you sit and watch a game and the team is pushing forward, take your eye off the ball for a moment and see how good some players really are.

You take Torres, he does really well in set pieces and when he has the ball has the ability to force open space. He often plays into the last man, if that man has a good day then he won't get much touch of the ball. His great finishing is enough so that when he does get the few opportunities, he does score.
It's a style that works.
You take Ronaldo, he works the entire width of the field to constantly provide himself with space and options and we all know how he is when he has the ball.

Saying all that my hat goes off to Rooney, I think he's better than the above 2 off the ball, but he has serious problems with his final touch this season. I put it down to mentality, everytime he has a "injury" and misses a few of weeks, it takes him several games before he shoots on target.
His contribution this season has been very large and I wish he would start netting on a higher level since I've watched him every match he misses an easy goal per game that Torres / Ronaldo score every single time.

[Ranvier]

Watching that youtube I guess some of his goals do look good when in juxtaposition. Just wasn't dazzling Live. I am sorry for not liking them as much...glad you liked them. My favorite LFC striker has got to be Robbie Fowler...some of the goals he scored were just awesome...I STILL remember the ones against manure in the '95/'96 season. I have enjoyed Peter Crouch goals a lot more too when he has been on the pitch (that hat trick last year...my god those semi-bicycle kick volleys with different foot each time were amazing).

These days I watch LFC just to see Gerrard's volleys and long shots and the occasional one from Riise (though haven't seen one in ages).

Gah someone brought up Trezeguet...I will never forgive him for missing his kick in the '06 WC final. <3 Juve though...big del Piero fan since the '98 WC.

Edit to add:

Originally Posted by slitz

I wouldn't compare Gerrard with them since I would say he's a "normal" midfielder. Not claiming he isn't as good offensively as those players, but because he's a machine defensively as well 8)

Yeah I agree with you. Gerrard's defensive tackles are very very good. Can't remember against who (was last season I think)...he went half way across the pitch to tackle and reclaim the ball.

Edit2:
As far as the CL goes this year I think Manure will be in the final. If its Barca vs. LFC I want Barca to lose so they can fire Rijkaard already so we can get rid of Grant. If its Manure vs. LFC I think the former will win. If somehow Chelsea get to the final they will beat Barca, but lose miserably and boringly if against Manure.

[Amahk]

I've got to agree...Ossoi and Zannadar really hit the spot with their statements about Strikers vs Forwards. And I do happen to think Torres will be as important to Liverpool as Etoo is to Barca and Henry was to Arsenal. If you have a guaranteed 20 league goals a season player that says a lot for your team. Now that I think about it, there's no team with a guaranteed 20 league goals player. Please don't call Drogba, he had 1 20-goal season in his 4 years whereas Henry, Ruud have had several. Michael Owen was really close to doing this for several years at Liverpool. I think Torres will accomplish this feat year in year out.

And to touch on Gerrard a bit, he started off as more of a defensive midfielder then moved to the right and now he's an attacking center midfielder. Behind Paul Scholes he's the best english talent currently. After him I'd say Joe Cole and then Rooney. He can make great tackles, he has stamina and a great long shot. Benitez made a great buy when he picked up Mascherano. That freed up Gerrard so much in his defensive duties having a world class defensive midfielder to cover for him.

[slitz]

Originally Posted by Ossoi

Liverpool are currently lining up 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard behind Torres as an advanced attacking midfielder/second striker, which funnily enough is the same position the likes of Ronaldhino and Kaka play in...like I said, do you actually watch Liverpool play?

What the fuck are you on about? I'm not talking about Liverpool, I'm talking about Torres mainly and sort of mentioned Gerrard.
And as I tried to explain, I wouldn't compare Gerrard to the people mentioned above because Gerrard have the defensive capabilities these players couldn't even dream of. So he's more of a all around midfielder than a forward imo.