2007 English Premier League

[Mimirswell]

Goal Rooney!

[Akileese]

FABREGAS AGAIN WITH A CRUCIAL GOAL!

God I want to see Ronaldo fall, tear his knee and never play again. Diving Portuguese piece of shit.

Almunia with a Lehman-esque move coming completely out of the box. He is the goat of the game regardless.

Whoopdy fucking doo. Another fucking draw. We dominated this game and should of one. It's getting frustrating watching us piss away chances against other big clubs. We're still top but now we need to run off 4 or 5 straight wins.

[Kiely]

Mimirswell have you actually watched any of this seasons games? You quote statistics like they mean something, completely ignoring what happens during matches. It's all about what matters at that moment in time before the match. MU aren't as confident as Arsenal can be right now, sure MU's is still great after scoring 12 goals in the last couple of weeks, but compared to Arsenal... no.
But Ronaldo? He scores easy goals to be fairest. If you saw how he plays this season and compare it to how he played last season maybe you would understand. It will come back to him yes but you blatantly haven't watched him.
You saw it yourself (Oh maybe not, might explain it) on Liverpool's game that they can play out of their socks at home, but Arsenal did great to overturn them on a good few occasions. 1-1 is a great result at that TIME.

On to this match, good draw but I feel that 2-1 would of been a better scoreline but Arsenal scrambled one out at the end... was painful to watch. Thought MU had the better football on the 2nd half and I was impressed to see Saha come on and do a couple of decent things, at least setting up the 2nd goal.

edit;
Just a few more credit to how Arsenal played, they hardly ever lost the ball for 90 minutes. Good passing and movement, but never good finishing.

[Waedar]

Watching the Wigan v Chelsea game myself right now, great goals sofar by Lampard and Belletti (23mins played atm) but damn Shun Wright Phillips is playing like a fiend today. guess Grant's little open door speech lit a fire under him or something

[Baerf]

Not able to watch the Blackburn vs Liverpool game. But a comment on the BBC's commentary says it all:

"Someone in the Ewood Park crowd is playing with a Rubik's Cube. Says it all."

Liverpool obviously learnt nothing after the Arsenal game.

[Waedar]

all the better for me, they drew Chelsea for carling cup quarterfinals it seems and well if they get dropped form the CL and don't make changes in the EPL its all fine and dandy as they won't be a title chaser and will not screw Chelsea out of a CL final this year

[Baerf]

It's a long season left to go with alot of games left to play, and Liverpool arn't "that" far behind in points at this moment. Liverpool also have a tendacy to pull something out of the bag when it comes to the CL (i.e 2005 and 2006) - so i've still have some hope.

Couldn't really care about the Carling Cup (it's nowhere nearly as popular as it used to be) - wouldn't care if they decided to play their reserves in the Chelsea match.

Think it's still going to be an interesting title race - but it'll take to Xmas before we can "really" see who the title contenders are.

[Mimirswell]

Originally Posted by Kiely

Mimirswell have you actually watched any of this seasons games?

Yes, I've had the pleasure of seeing all Manchester and Arsenal games (even when they play at the same time thanks to dual monitors) and most of Liverpool's as well (when they don't conflict).

You quote statistics like they mean something, completely ignoring what happens during matches. It's all about what matters at that moment in time before the match. MU aren't as confident as Arsenal can be right now, sure MU's is still great after scoring 12 goals in the last couple of weeks, but compared to Arsenal... no.

I disagree. Form/morale are best determined by the last 6 matches and Manchester United had won the last six games (the previous three overwhelmingly) while Arsenal won 5, drew 1. I simply stated that Arsenal didn't have a morale advantage. I never posited that Manchester United did have the advantage only that your argument was unrealistic in it's favor for Arsenal. I maintain this stance.

But Ronaldo? He scores easy goals to be fairest. If you saw how he plays this season and compare it to how he played last season maybe you would understand. It will come back to him yes but you blatantly haven't watched him.

No, he isn't entirely on form but you understated his presence. Also, last season (when he was on fire), Clichy marked him and completely shut him down. His cross in the 16th minute to Giggs was very impressive. So impressive, neither Sagna or Giggs were prepared for it. And while Evra did a great job in pulling out Almunia, Ronaldo still had a great shot for the goal. At the end of the day, goals matter and Ronaldo scored it, clearly making my point.

You saw it yourself (Oh maybe not, might explain it) on Liverpool's game that they can play out of their socks at home, but Arsenal did great to overturn them on a good few occasions. 1-1 is a great result at that TIME.

Yeah, I saw it and Liverpool played well but results matter and they haven't gotten them this season at all at home, period. You cannot tout the vaunted "Anfield" effect when Liverpool have a much better away record than home and the rest of the "big 4" all have a better home record. EVERYONE plays harder at home, that's way it's called the home field advantage.

On to this match, good draw but I feel that 2-1 would of been a better scoreline but Arsenal scrambled one out at the end... was painful to watch. Thought MU had the better football on the 2nd half and I was impressed to see Saha come on and do a couple of decent things, at least setting up the 2nd goal.

Saha surprised me, I didn't think he was quite fit.

edit;
Just a few more credit to how Arsenal played, they hardly ever lost the ball for 90 minutes. Good passing and movement, but never good finishing.

That's the ubiquitous criticism of Arsenal, their finish is always suspect. I think it was a mistake to play Adebayor up front alone but I think Wenger went into the game with the plan for a tie.

PS - I liked the accusations that I don't watch any games and only read statistics because I dare to disagree with you, very classy. I don't recall a single ad hominem response I made towards you.

[Akileese]

Won't argue Mimirswell. Wenger has one strategy right now. Survive until RVP comes back fit. Luckily for us our CL ties are meaningless as we've all but punched our ticket to the final 16. If we can stay top of the table until Van Persie comes back (should be around Thanksgiving time maybe earlier depending on how his fitness progresses), I love our chances. Adebayor is a great striker, but he doesn't have the skill yet to go solo. This is something even the most advanced of strikers have trouble accomplishing. Luckily Hleb is completely on form, but I think it's time to start Eduardo up top or Walcott.

I'm pleased with the draw although I felt we were a better side. Fergie will speak of how he felt his side should of won, but deep down he's happy to get a draw. I'm happy with a draw although now we have a slew of road games. We need to get some results to keep pace or stay ahead of United.

[Kiely]

I find when my opinions which seem pretty reasonable then to be deemed "invalid" not very classy either. I apologise for accusing then.
We disagree on said issues nevertheless, though I will stand firm with my opinion on Ronaldo not being in his good form. He has been man-marked the last few games infact and I don't recall him using the space when he get's it at all well as he used to. He's simply not creating as many chances as he used to, nor holding the ball as well as he used to.
I think on Arsenal's game he only managed 2 crosses and lost the ball every single other occasion, either from tackle or tripping up.
Previous games he had more space, more time and therefore more oppertunities, but again, he even missed quite a few passes; 1-2's were abysmal.
I even attributed a few of these things to his overlap partner Wes Brown, who indeed is playing well but I feel not as well as Neville provided him. But that's really not a factor.
I'm glad he's good enough as you say to still score the goals and do the necessary few things but it leads me to concern with the team, with Scholes coming out and Andersson in. Anderrson was good enough to get stuck in and do decent tackles but the last few games his pass success rate has been a bit low, whereas someone like Scholes rarely ever misses a decent pass.
Just like to mention that with Hargreaves arrival, I expect to see the old style Scholes return with him venturing forward with the center forwards, searching goals and not afraid to take more shots.
Hargreaves again tries quite long range shots that don't come close, I don't know what his track record is at Bayurn for those but I'd prefer him filling in with more passes for now.

[Mimirswell]

Originally Posted by Kiely

We disagree on said issues nevertheless, though I will stand firm with my opinion on Ronaldo not being in his good form. He has been man-marked the last few games infact and I don't recall him using the space when he get's it at all well as he used to. He's simply not creating as many chances as he used to, nor holding the ball as well as he used to.

Ronaldo is marked much more efficiently this season than last and I think that has contributed to his effectiveness. All my initial point was, he's still doing quite well and a major threat to any team (as well as the top goal scorer for Man U, over Rooney and Tevez). He has a 0.49 goal rating per game, compared to 0.57 last year and a single hat trick would put him ahead of last year. If anything, he's lacking in the assist department (especially compared to Fabregas who has as an almost 1:1 goal to assist ratio.)

I think on Arsenal's game he only managed 2 crosses and lost the ball every single other occasion, either from tackle or tripping up.

He did better this game than last season when he had what was probably the most lackluster performances of that season. This game he had 32 attempted passes and 28 completed (averages 37), two tackles (averages 1), one interception and a goal score. That's a solid performance considering its the Emirates. The problem is Arsenal's defense can make a lot of players look bad and he did have one abysmal cross that certainly stood out and a couple of strips. I've been watching Manchester United a long time and I just don't find Ronaldo all that different from last year.

I'm glad he's good enough as you say to still score the goals and do the necessary few things but it leads me to concern with the team, with Scholes coming out and Andersson in. Anderrson was good enough to get stuck in and do decent tackles but the last few games his pass success rate has been a bit low, whereas someone like Scholes rarely ever misses a decent pass.

Well, Anderson only recently recovered from injury and hasn't gotten near the quality time necessary (compared to Nani) to integrate with the first team. Hopefully it works out as he has the most potential out of all the new signings.

Just like to mention that with Hargreaves arrival, I expect to see the old style Scholes return with him venturing forward with the center forwards, searching goals and not afraid to take more shots.

Hargreaves again tries quite long range shots that don't come close, I don't know what his track record is at Bayurn for those but I'd prefer him filling in with more passes for now.

Hargreaves is a good holding midfielder (82% tackling accuracy) but never a goalscorer (10 goals in 211 games at Bayern). He's a great passer, even long balls (89% accuracy, far higher than the position average) but fairly abysmal on crosses. I think the only reason you see him take shots as it's the best way to pull a defensive player to cover him, opening up the defense for a more attack minded player and occasionally he gets a goal (he has a very powerful shot, it's just not very accurate).

PS - It certainly wasn't my intention to label your opinions as invalid but I apologize since it clearly came off that way.

[Wanand]

82% tackling accuracy / even long balls 89% accuracy

You Americans sure do love your statistics. No one here would even bother to count that.

I was watching some Major League Soccer game the other week and they was making a big deal because it was the keepers 1000th save of his career. I just burst out laughing and though to myself who really gives a fuck.

[Akileese]

Originally Posted by Wanand

You Americans sure do love your statistics. No one here would even both to count that.

I was watching some Major League Soccer game the other week and they was making a big deal because it was the keepers 1000th save of carear. I just burst out laughing and though to myself who really gives a fuck.

Won't argue that. MLS is bush league as fuck although American Footy is progressing to the point where I feel we have a chance to make a very good impact on the 2010 World Cup. I think the only stats that matter in Footy are wins and losses.

Americans are stat crazy though I won't argue that. A lot of it comes down to our sports being statistically based (Football, Baseball, Basketball, etc). Stats are quite overrated in European Football.

[Mimirswell]

Statistics are good at independent verification. For example, if you ask another person about a player you have not seen much of, there are a few ways to go about it.

The first is to simply tell them they are very good and commit a logical fallacy, argumentum ad verecundiam. It has two problems, one, it's a logical fallacy and thus, is not very persuasive. The reason it is not persuasive is it's built entirely on how much faith you put into the individual providing the information. Two, it suffers from extreme bias (someone who just watches the EPL is hardly a bastion of knowledge about how good a player is in relation to the worldwide standards.)

The second method is to provide footage for the individual to watch and to make their own judgment. This is useful in that it provides someone with first hand experience; however, it too fails for two reasons. The first, it generally lacks appropriate context. What team were they playing, how many injuries did each side have, is it 11-10 from a red card? The second, players such as the aforementioned, who do not generate a lot of scores or assists tend to not make it on a great deal of highlights and therefore do not have a great many videos about them. A quick search on youtube recovers several videos on his goals, a couple of videos on his warmups and then a few shots here and there of him playing. Virtually useless for the question given earlier.

The final method is statistics. Statistics are valuable in that they serve as a medium by which information can be exchanged without a reliance on the individual or a reliance on footage. Thus, I use them on forums when conversing with someone for those reasons. Whether you give a damn about statistics, or whether Europe does (you are wrong on this by-the-by, Americans neither recorded, interpreted or released statistics in the Bundesliga), it doesn't matter. All the manager's use a combination of statistics and footage to filter their fast number of possible recruits and specifically in the EPL, Wenger has praised the use of statistics. You know, that manager legendary for his ability to scout and develop players.

Arsène Wenger has revealed that he is “addicted to statistics” and uses technical data to back up his instincts when signing players. Wenger was speaking in his role as an ambassador for Castrol, a sponsor for Euro 2008, which is developing the Castrol Performance Index, a system for analysing team and player performance, based on real-time data from the new Uefa Tracking System.

“The game is played by 11 players and you have only two eyes to observe everything on the pitch,” Wenger said. “The more concrete data you can have, the happier you are in terms of making the right judgment. Sometimes you are guided too much by the result and can misjudge performances. Data like this helps rate players who maybe you have neglected too much and helps everyone take a more objective view.”

Source: Arsene Wenger on a roll, statistically speaking | Arsenal - Times Online

In conclusion, kindly shut the fuck up.

[Waedar]

i'm not sure from all i hear and read its the germans who are stat fiends (though maybe not about football, but danm everything else about a us city or state they might not know about)

eitherway Fergi is pissed and saying they got robbed of the win and giving up the tie in injury time got them out of jail (they being arsenal jail being the loss i guess).

he must not have watched Chelsea at all for the past few seasons, won't tell you howmany hearts the blues broke with last min goals to even it or take all 3 points (in both big name games and teams agaisnt the "lower" side of the epl)

~as a sidenote MLS playoffs are underway and well I'm a Houstonian so go Dynamo (ie. expect more of Rosario on the Canadian national team and hopefully Ching gets more US MNT playing time). Besides best part of being a fan of US Soccer (can't call it football confuses too many people outside these threads) is that well hay if our MNT beats yours it just makes you guys look that bad :-p