The MMA thread

[Grimmlokk]

BTW UFC 70, the one from England, will be free on Spike. On tape delay, but still free. So just avoid spoilers like you would a Pride japan show=P Free Cro-Cop, Arlovski vs. Werdum, Forrest Griffin, and Michael Bisping.

I am not liking this UFC trend of showing less fights at all, but for the free one only 5 scheduled isn't so bad as long as they at least show those top four.

[Drajakur]

Im hyped about getting this shit for free. Plus I haven't seen Werdum fight in forever so that ought to be good. Looking forward to seeing The Count fight also in front of a friendly crowd. He should be pumped!

D

[Haalen]

Originally Posted by Grimmlokk

I am not liking this UFC trend of showing less fights at all, but for the free one only 5 scheduled isn't so bad as long as they at least show those top four.

And this is why I haven't bought a UFC event in almost a year. Its a good thing mma-tv exists.

[elrich]

Alright.. so, not being really familiar with MMA stuff, I just watched some of the clips in this thread.

And i gotta say I was/am really really unimpressed.

I guess that's probably because since it has "martial arts" in the name, I was expecting it to be, well, just that. Instead its just... skilled brawling.

I suppose that if that's what you enjoy watching, then I can see why MMA appeals to you, but I really expect something more disciplined and elegant from martial arts.

A clear comparison was the video clip provided of the one MMA guy showing judo techniques... well, I get to watch a 7th dan Aikido master demonstrate throws, and the difference is about a lifetime of training. Just in the way he moves, and the efficiency of his actions.

*shrug* I guess I'm just comparing apples to oranges here--with comparing a fighting sport to martial arts disciplines, was just mislead by the name is all =/

[Celebrindal]

Yeah well, Mixed Martial Arts is not supposed to look like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. You may think it's "skilled brawling", but the technique in all of the actual training done for MMA is tried and tested. Traditional Martial Arts is full of outdated kata. That is not to say all of it is useless. Where do you think those of us who train get our technique from?

Cross training the best stuff from Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling etc. and throwing out the useless kata is what makes MMA work.

By the way, "demonstrate" is about all you can say for most Traditional Martial Arts. A lot of your "7th dan Aikido Masters" do no actual full contact sparring, and they will get their ass handed to them in a real fight.

Edit: By the way, Randori is not full contact sparring.

[Haalen]

Originally Posted by elrich

Alright.. so, not being really familiar with MMA stuff, I just watched some of the clips in this thread.

And i gotta say I was/am really really unimpressed.

I guess that's probably because since it has "martial arts" in the name, I was expecting it to be, well, just that. Instead its just... skilled brawling.

I suppose that if that's what you enjoy watching, then I can see why MMA appeals to you, but I really expect something more disciplined and elegant from martial arts.

A clear comparison was the video clip provided of the one MMA guy showing judo techniques... well, I get to watch a 7th dan Aikido master demonstrate throws, and the difference is about a lifetime of training. Just in the way he moves, and the efficiency of his actions.

*shrug* I guess I'm just comparing apples to oranges here--with comparing a fighting sport to martial arts disciplines, was just mislead by the name is all =/

First, the videos in this thread is a terrible sampling of the sport as a whole.
The sport of MMA and the Martial Art demonstrations come from the same roots. The difference is not a lifetime of training, there are a lot of fighters who've been training all their lives. The difference is real world experience and practicallity.

Why don't you see the flashier Martial Art's move in MMA? Because they don't work. The UFC started as an event pitting the different styles of fighting against each other. They had pretty much everything; kung fu, boxing, wrestling, jui-jitsu, judo, boxing, tae kwon do, sumo, etc. No weight classes. Royce Gracie, weighing in around 170lb. won 3 of the first 4 tournaments using just his lifetime training of Gracie Jui-jitsu.

Why did he win and why didn't the kung fu or the '10th dan' in whatever win? Well, first those martial arts that didn't implement any form of grappling were immediately taken to the ground and absolutely molested. On top of that Gracie Jui-jitsu was a martial art that cut out the flash in favor of effeciency and results. You don't see guys doing animal styles of kung fu, or the stiff inflexible stances of some forms of Tae Kwon Do because those guys have already tried and got the shit beaten out of them.

The fighters today no longer stick to just 1 discipline. The best fighters in the world are the ones who cross train in different styles, usually following the formula of '1 striking style + 1 grappling art + some wrestling' = success.
They stick to practical martial arts, those that cut out the flashy bullshit.

The big difference is these Mixed Martial Arts competitors have dropped the 'Art' in favor of 'science.' What do I mean by this? Well, have you ever seen an olympic discus thrower? Just seems like some guy twirling around and throwing a disc. Nope, there's way more to even that seemingly simple event. Top guys in that sport go get motion sensors attached to them so a computer can track their motions while they practice. Then they look at every single little motion to determine how he should be moving his body to make it the most efficent disc thrower it can be.

A similar line of thinking is going into MMA these days. People who like the style of Ground and Pound are looking towards guys like Fedor. Why do his punches on the ground seem so much more devastating? Well its all in the details. A guy on both knees throwing arms punches won't be as effective as Fedor. As an example, Fedor vs. Big Nog, Fedor throws a devastating punch, not while on both knees. He got up on one knee, and that gave him the leverage to use his hips and his shoulders to put more power behind the punch. Its all these little details that make a huge difference in these fights between professionals.

Sure a demonstration looks fancy when your "opponent" is just a colleague who is working WITH you to accomplish something. Its very different with an actual opponent who is working AGAINST you AND isn't confined to one style, so while your going for a judo throw, he's whaling on your face.

Wanna see the difference between a brawler and an actual technical striker? I recommend you watch Anderson Silva utterly humiliate Chris Leben in less than minute, here.

Top guys today are heavily rooted in some kind of martial arts, with top styles used today being: Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Sambo, Jui-Jitsu, Wrestling, various submission fighting styles, and I'm sure a bunch others I'm forgetting right now.

Is there flashiness in the sport today? Hell yeah, quite a bit, but you'll never see it if you don't know what your looking at. I was at the IFL finals last year and the crowd was booing a good fight because they were grappling and the crowd didn't realize what was going on. I saw the arm movements of the fighters and saw one of them locking in an anaconda choke. The crowd was booing while I saw this choke go in tight and his opponent slowly go limp. The boos quickly turned to cheers when he stood up and his opponent was out cold on the mat. But to them the fight was 'They rolled around on the ground, some things happened, then one guy was sleeping for some reason.'

[Tuco]

A clear comparison was the video clip provided of the one MMA guy showing judo techniques... well, I get to watch a 7th dan Aikido master demonstrate throws, and the difference is about a lifetime of training. Just in the way he moves, and the efficiency of his actions.

He may have a lifetime of training, but how much training has he had against an equally skilled combatant using any technique in the book (outside of Judo) to try and stop him from his throws? Maybe a lot, I don't know.

But I bet when he was demonstrating his throws, it wasn't on that combatant.

You'll see a lot of martial artists that 'perfect' their techniques to be used against others in the same martial art, within the boundaries of that martial art. One of the dojo's that Bruce Lee practiced in, for example, complained that Lee had too big of biceps, because those biceps got in the way of the martial art that that dojo practiced.

[Celebrindal]

This


Or

This

[elrich]

Well, the criticisms in reply to my post all make sense, and I want to just clarify that I am, in no way, trying to take away from the skill of the MMA combatants.

But it isn't that I expected it to look like a movie fight, or contain the flashy moves. The comparison I made was to Aikido, which is meant to be a very minimalistic martial art, with only the bare minimum of effort and movement required to execute any particular move. There is no flashy--at all.



is a good example. And yes, I know that this is not indicative of a real fight, the ukei (attacker) offers no real resistance, and you will not find any videos of real aikido fights because there are no tournaments or competitions in the discipline, sorry =/

But it does demonstrate what I mean by the elegance of movement and efficiency of it.

And while it does look like perhaps the ukei is over-acting on taking some of the falls, that is not to make the move look better, but to disperse the energy as to avoid having limbs broken. Any one of these moves carried out at full speed and followed through would end a fight.

Things to look for, are how many movements he makes in each move demonstrated. Two, maybe three actual movements will be involved. Each step he takes places his feet in the right spot (no need to stutter step or fix his balance, etc), and its those small things that I have come to associate with true masters of their respective martial arts.


Hah! Hadn't even seen that someone above me posted an Aikido video--watching now: ah, an aikido 'blooper real', *sigh* yes, a good indicator of the discipline. *shakes head*

[Lakor]

You say you were unimpressed, but what did you expect? MMA is about fighting.

[Tuco]

Elrich's commentary and the retorts are a typical example of what the difference is between MMA goals and a specific Martial Art's goals.

Elrich desires that the person has perfect form, execution and beauty in the art, and an MMA fan wants to see someone use something that works in a fight.

In the end, our guy could kick your guy's pretty ass in a not so pretty way.

[Korbal]

Originally Posted by elrich

Hah! Hadn't even seen that someone above me posted an Aikido video--watching now: ah, an aikido 'blooper real', *sigh* yes, a good indicator of the discipline. *shakes head*

Your video isn't much different. I laugh at people who take that shit seriously.

[Sheaf]

Originally Posted by elrich

Each step he takes places his feet in the right spot (no need to stutter step or fix his balance, etc), and its those small things that I have come to associate with true masters of their respective martial arts.

Ahhhh yes, the true masters. Guess what? When your opponent is moving in predictable patterns that you have practiced for years, it's not very difficult to place your feet perfectly for his next "attack."

[Grimmlokk]

Cro Cop > Bruce Lee


It had to be done people.

Anyhoo, I'll take this debate any day over the "muscly men rolling around? MMA = Gay!" rehashed bullshit any day.

I think Tuco pretty much covered it. Efficiency of movement? MMA is all about efficiency. Adjusting positon on the ground to expend the least energy for the most damage. Using the simplest possible lock to submit your opponent(triangle/rear naked choke anyone?).

It's just a matter of different goals. Most of what you think of as Martial Arts these days is just physical meditation. MMA brings out the practical side of it.

[Drajakur]

Elrich is being a sensible guy so I'm surely not going to flame him, but I think the main point comes down to this: i) in the video he posted, the two guys who are 'sparring' are basically under agreement to let one guy demonstrate his skills and the other guy act as the training dummy, ii) in MMA that training dummy has agreed instead to try and kick your fucking head in.

If you want an exhibition of grace under non-combat conditions, then his video is a good one. But that's really a lot more like dancing than actual fighting (in form, obviously, not content). In MMA, the exhibition of grace comes only as a product of trying to attack and defend against someone who is also trying to attack. For example, see the latest Hughes/GSP fight. GSP demonstrates absolutely insane agility, balance, coordination, etc. against an opponent who is nominally as capable as him.

D