a Proposal

[Iannis]

Any link with rush limbaugh in it has to rock.

And actually I rethought that nuclear bit, mostly because I really didn't think of them as "nuclear weapons" until someone brought it up with me in a conversation. I always only think of nuclear as the bomb, yknow...that means the military is considering using those fucking depleted uranium slugs(or whatever those rounds were) again. I have a serious issue with that shit. They can shoot up as much crap as they like, but it is definetly NOT alright to be using ammo that causes cancer in our own troops for lugging around, and seriously fucked up the people who lived getting exposed to them.
The war I'm fine with, but lying(or omitting) to the troops ain't a good thing.

[Tuco]

I think the number was 108k troops from the gulf war that were hospitalized(some died) from chemical infection of our own stuff(no I don't have the charts to back that up)

[Ddoof]

ill tell you what 7 pages is my new personal record. horray for stupidness

[fade]

i actually agree with kjia.
you all think you are SO smart and know EVERYTHING that goes on right? wrong. you think the government give a shit about you? think again. U.S. citizens are just mere ants that live in the governments country. were all brainwashed by media and television to think what we are told to think. "this just in, saddam knew about 9/11 *we think* so now were going to war! more at 11"

Give me a break. Since EQ is such a "intellegent" game i was suprised on how many people are completely clueless on the whole war. The whole thing is a set up kiddies. some random group who we got nothing against, steals a plain and runs it into 2 buildings and they fall down, 3k people died. big whoop. 3k people die like every hour. So now america is left dazed and confused, hating some random towl head who we taped over his voice in multiple videos to make it seem like he organized 9/11. so now, the real enemy appears, saddam, because he knew about 9/11, so were gonna go to war. Talk about fucking retarded? HELLO? That has to be the worst reason to go to war of all time. and dont give me that "but hes starving his people" and "hes a bully lets kix ass pez"

Stop fucking caring about other peoples lives for once. Your the ruler of your own life, not some muslim who doesnt know how to speak english. Do i know anyone in iraq? No. Do i care if the whole middle east becomes one giant ash tray? No. SHOULD I CARE ABOUT ANYONE WHO I DONT EVEN FUCKING KNOW WHO I WILL NEVER KNOW AND NEVER SPEAK TO IN MY LIFE? NO.

Wake up people. If this whole war was about disarming people (which it isnt) Were going after the wrong guy. We should stop caring about saddam and go after the country that actually THREATENED the U.S. Did saddam ever threaten the u.s. with a nuke? or a biological weapon? No. Its all propeganda, the media says saddam sucks, we believe it.

I honestly dont give a fuck if we disarm saddam or not. But the real reason for the war is kiddies, is that america thinks ahead. Wonder why we bitch about having no oil in so and so years? When we havnt even drilled into our own wells? Were taking over the world in a sense. I forgot the percentage, but mostly all of the worlds oil comes from iraq. Once we take over iraq, the US will seize the oil. Then, over time, US will become the only country WITH oil, because we have iraq's, and our full reserves we left untouched. Other countrys will beg us for oil, offering extreme ammounts of money just for a tap of our prescous oil. Talk about a way to get out of debt.

It boils down to this : The United States of America has taken over the world. We dont say we have, but if ANY fucking country does 1 FUCKING THING WRONG that we dont like? we send in full military support and kick there fucking ass. When they didnt even do SHIT to us. How is that NOT taking over the world? Sure were just 1 country out of many, and other countrys are free from the US, but when it comes to military action. We Reign Supreme. Open your eyes kkthxmuch!

[Anarchy]

Tis mean, but true!

[Furism]

I won't say anything about attacking or not Iraq because nothing good can come up in this thread - hell if they can't stay polite at a Security Council meeting, we won't here.

Bu what amazes me is we never talk about USA mistakes. I don't want to say 'USA is bad' because that's not true. Everyone make mistakes, my country, the France, first of all (we attacked Vietnam before you, for instance, we went to Algeria murdering families, we made nuclear tests in the Pacific, and I'm not talking about last centuries and the 10 centuries before in France history).

But we have to keep in mind that USA, because they are SURE their culture is the best, always try to impose their way of thinking. Communism started wars (Korea, Vietnam), now it's terrorism. Fine. But history repeat itself : because they are too confident in themselves, Americans are going to 'lower their faction' with the rest of the world once again.

I KNOW that from your standpoint it's fair. I have no doubt of it. But when the rest of the planet tells you it's WRONG, you have to think about it.

If USA had my country under embargo for the last 12 years and threat to attack, I would hate them too. Not because they want to remove my fucking tyrant power, I'd hate him too, but because during the first place they didn't kill him.

Not to mention the Kurds in the North of Iraq who tried once to attack Sadam's army (can't remember the year, was a CIA black op well known in the intelligence community) with the support of CIA. But some Saddam's spy revealed their base and they got bombed with chemical weapons. Promised air support didn't come because it was too 'flashy' for the public's opinion. I'd hate USA for that too, letting me die after pushing me to kill my tyrant. (You can contest that CIA op I don't care, I know it's true).

USA armed Talibans to fight communism, we saw the result. USA armed Iraq with chemical and high technoliges, used for the Iran slaughter back in 88. USA borrowed 2 USD billions to Iraq to build nuclear plants (a way to buy the country so he can fight Iran) and never got it back.

North Korea reopened some nuclear reactors because of the oil/gas embargo USA put them under - I don't mean to say 'they are right, they are wrong', just listing a fact.

Non-US people hate to see them saving the world in their great movies because when they open their windows, they see ruin or poverty because of war or US companies (the whole Nike factory in China - I think - costs the same price every year that Nike's bosses salary).

But keep in mind that people don't like US government, not US people who can do nothing. It's normal that people living in this country support their rulers, because from their standpoints they do ok things. I won't be mad at people who will eventually flame me after this post, for instance, because I know what a shock 9-11 was (we had a lot of terrorism acts here in Paris, even if they were not that big).

But please, USA, just open your mind and try to undestand the rest of the world, not only what CNN tells you.

As for the WWII sacrifice. Trust me, it's not forgotten. Hundreads of songs, poems, movies or books thank the USA for saving the free world - the only time this country actually did, but for a huge cost.

But also keep in mind that USA helped not only to be nice to their allies, but because they were also the next on the list, trapped beetween Japan and Germany, they'd have lost and we would all speak german at the moment.

This help was also what made the USA the first power in the world by a large number, and helped to fight the communism in Europe (communists helped a lot during the resistance, their reputation was strong - that's why CIA, which name was CIO at this time if I remember correctly, helped to created a few syndicates in France afterwards but that's another story).

Bottom line is : whatever we all think, it will have no impact on the final decision anyway. So just keep cool and try to discuss each other's opinion from your own country rather than just try to impose what you think..

My 2cp..

[Baddori]

Well first I'll briefly address fade.

That was the biggest pile of monkey dung I have ever read.

Brief enough? Alright, next.

Furism,

We appreciate your calm portrayal of your point of view. I would just like to address a few things you said and ask you to respond. I want to start of by pointing out that when you talk about "American government" you're talking about a completely different entity every time there is a President of a different party than the last. The "American government" under Clinton was about 85% opposite from the "American government" before and after him under Reagan, Bush, and W. Bush.

I don't really have much of a clue about political parties anywhere exept a little in the UK and a little in Israel, but in America, the country is split almost exactly 50/50 between the two parties. The views of the two parties on EVERY issue tend to be 100% polar opposites. That said, the view of almost half of Americans (citizens and government officials alike) belong to a party who's platform is to oppose the war with Iraq (although what they are really doing is opposing W). Now, there's a considerable number of Democrats who are now supporting the war because of the insurmountable evidence that points toward that requirement.


Now, on to your points.

But we have to keep in mind that USA, because they are SURE their culture is the best, always try to impose their way of thinking.

I would just like to say here that American "culture" is becoming closer and closer to non-existant. The original point in America was that people from all over the world wanted to move here to either get away from their own culture or to be part of the American culture (or both). These days, everything is about cultural diversity instead of cultural unity like it once was. Every minority group here wants to have special rights and special opportunities, never recognizing the diversity that came from white people of dozens of nations coming together. Basically what I'm saying that that there is no American culture anymore.

Communism started wars (Korea, Vietnam), now it's terrorism. Fine. But history repeat itself : because they are too confident in themselves, Americans are going to 'lower their faction' with the rest of the world once again.

Alright. If "lowering our faction" with the rest of the world was the cost of restraining the spread of communism, fine. It was worth it. The fact of that matter was that we were not in a position to fight that war to win it.

If "lowering our faction" with the rest of the world is the cost of making right what has been wrong in Iraq since the Gulf War and before, fine. It will again be worth it.

I KNOW that from your standpoint it's fair. I have no doubt of it. But when the rest of the planet tells you it's WRONG, you have to think about it.

Maybe I'm just proving your point, but what right does "the world" really have to tell us we're wrong or get upset at us finishing our own war? This is a continuation of the Gulf War, in which an ally of the USA was invaded and we liberated them.

If USA had my country under embargo for the last 12 years and threat to attack, I would hate them too.

The embargo wasn't restricting food or medicine. It is Saddam who was starving his people, not the USA, by giving everything to his military. (This is how a dictator stays in power, remember Stalin? Il?)

USA armed Talibans to fight communism, we saw the result.

Are you referring to the result that the USSR communists were pushed out of Afganistan? That was the goal at the time we helped them. Nobody has a crystal ball. We also allied with Stalin against Hitler. Was that wrong too? I bet the French don't think so.

Non-US people hate to see them saving the world in their great movies because when they open their windows, they see ruin or poverty because of war or US companies (the whole Nike factory in China - I think - costs the same price every year that Nike's bosses salary).

I don't have a clue what this China thing you are talking about is. Please educate me. A far as the ruin and poverty because of war, one of this war's goals is to free oppressed Iraqis from their poverty, which has been inflicted by their leader.

But keep in mind that people don't like US government, not US people who can do nothing. It's normal that people living in this country support their rulers, because from their standpoints they do ok things. I won't be mad at people who will eventually flame me after this post, for instance, because I know what a shock 9-11 was (we had a lot of terrorism acts here in Paris, even if they were not that big).

Like I said before. About half of the "people who can't do anything" support their rulers (if by rulers you mean the president, don't forget the congress though). We, the people who can't do anything, are the ones who selected these people to form our government. They reflect what we want (half of us at a time). The other half of the country that voted for Al Gore for president tends to hate Bush and almost everything he does, and they do nothing but criticize him.

You say you won't be mad at people who flame you, and I hope that what I am doing is not taken as a flame. I really and honestly just want to give you (my opinion of) a level-headed and reasoned American opinion from someone who does support the current government. I also know about the terrorism in France. Just after 9/11 there was a factory bombed or something. We read the article from yahoo.fr's news section in french class about it. I'm sure that it wasn't the only one.

But please, USA, just open your mind and try to undestand the rest of the world, not only what CNN tells you.

Now maybe if you had said Fox News instead of CNN this would have made some sense, but CNN is a liberal leaning news network. They are much more sympathetic with the anti-war movement than they are spreading what you may call "war propaganda". But I do agree that you should not base your opinion on information from just one source, especially CNN . Go to www.un.org. Read the resolutions for yourself!! Read them all. It will be clear that not only does the US have the right, reason, and responsibility to finish the Gulf War, but that the UN is pulling a League of Nations and fading into irrelevance. Read them for yourself and decide if 12 years was not long enough for diplomacy to work.

As for the WWII sacrifice. Trust me, it's not forgotten. Hundreads of songs, poems, movies or books thank the USA for saving the free world - the only time this country actually did, but for a huge cost.

What about WWI? What about Vietnam? What about Korea?

But personally, I am against holding past help over the heads of those we helped. If you still appreciate it, that's wonderful. I just know that when I was in France, especially in Paris, I was treated like a "dirty American tourist." Or at least that's the way it felt.

However, that was not you, so I don't hold that against you either. Also, I personally appreciate the help France gave us during the Revolutionary war. Who knows? Maybe the USA wouldn't exist if France hadn't helped us out, or it would be a very different place if we had to do it a different way later on. We've helped each other in this way.

But also keep in mind that USA helped not only to be nice to their allies, but because they were also the next on the list, trapped beetween Japan and Germany, they'd have lost and we would all speak german at the moment.

I have absolutely no clue about this, so please point out if I am wrong, but this is the best I can remember from history class. The fight against Japan was fought and won at least 95% by America. This is while we were helping europe with Germany. Basically, when you say we would have lost and been speaking German, the first two words that come to mind are "atomic bomb."

This help was also what made the USA the first power in the world by a large number, and helped to fight the communism in Europe (communists helped a lot during the resistance, their reputation was strong - that's why CIA, which name was CIO at this time if I remember correctly, helped to created a few syndicates in France afterwards but that's another story).

Verifying my thought that America has payed for its place in the position of power it now holds with blood, sweat, and tears.


[QUOTEBottom line is : whatever we all think, it will have no impact on the final decision anyway. So just keep cool and try to discuss each other's opinion from your own country rather than just try to impose what you think..[/quote]

A) What I think is what the USA President and UK PM think on this subject, so in this case, it my ideas will impact the final descision, although not because they are mine.

B) As far as keeping cool and trying to discuss my opinion and yours from my country's point of view, I hope I have done so.


I await your response. Make it good furby.

[Baddori]

OMG that was long.

[Schar]

Hey, that was cool, an intelligent, calm post presenting a view for the war. I'm actually impressed, not that you changed my opinion at all. I have to make a couple pointers though.

Basically what I'm saying that that there is no American culture anymore.

That's just flat out wrong. The United States has the most influential culture worldwide, by far. I think that you're thinking of culture as language, spiritual practices, the way people dress, religious beleifs, etc. But these days, culture is mostly movies, music, television, magazines, sports, etc. All of which the US dominates. Hell, your culture is so influential, Canada has nearly become USA jr .

Maybe I'm just proving your point, but what right does "the world" really have to tell us we're wrong or get upset at us finishing our own war? This is a continuation of the Gulf War, in which an ally of the USA was invaded and we liberated them.

First of all, you're part of the world, therefore you should respect the rest of the world's opinions. Especially since you joined the U.N. Second of all, i disagree, this is not a continuation of the Gulf War. This is a new war, which hasn't started yet. If it starts, the US will fire the first shot. The Gulf War is over, and has been for some time. You said it yourself, the reason for that war was to liberate your ally, which you did. The end. The only similarity with that war is that Saddam Hussein is involved.

*wonders how long it will be before some screenshots retard makes fun of Furism for speaking english as a second language *

fade, i agree with some of your post, but most of it disgusts me. I didn't know it was possible to piss off both sides of this argument, but i think you did it

[Templor]

Originally posted by Schar
The facts are that

1.) Saddam and his regime are "evil". They're dangerous, they have been violating crucial policies and need to be dealt with.
2.) Americans (and to a lesser extent, Canadians and people in the UK and other parts of the world) feel extremely threatened.
3.) The United States is on the verge of defying the intentions of the United Nations
4.) The world has just experienced its largest peace protests ever
5.) High level US Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off of the table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq
6.) War is horrible. Innocent people WILL die if there is a war.

Half of what you said there aren't facts but opinions.

War is horrible? Saddam and his regime are evil? Americans feeling threatened(more of a generalization)?

If you're going to present the facts leave your opinions out.

[Baddori]

Originally posted by Schar

That's just flat out wrong. The United States has the most influential culture worldwide, by far. I think that you're thinking of culture as language, spiritual practices, the way people dress, religious beleifs, etc. But these days, culture is mostly movies, music, television, magazines, sports, etc. All of which the US dominates. Hell, your culture is so influential, Canada has nearly become USA jr .

Allow me to clarify what I meant by the statement that there is no definitive American culture.

Originally in America, there was this idea of a "melting pot." The idea was that all these different and diverse cultures from all over the world would come together in America. Inside the "pot" everyone would "melt" together. Then what you have is a homogeneous, "American" goo.

However, this does not come close to accurately describing the situation. You may have heard of it more accurately described as a "Tossed Salad." You have all the different parts coming together to create a unified diversity, but you still have the lettuce and the tomatoes and the cucumbers or whatever separately existing. So America is like a salad, but the individual parts of the salad still exist.

Now to bring this analogy into the present. What we have with the continued Civil Rights movement (which in the view of many has already fulfilled its goals, at least with respect to gender and race issues) and Affirmative Action is a further seperation of the elements in the salad. The Civil Rights movement and the liberals claim to be trying to further homogenize the salad and make it more like a melting pot, but by doing so they are acheiving the opposite. They are culturally segregating the parts of the salad. They are picking out all the carrots and tomatoes and cucumbers and placing them in separate piles from the lettuce.

In terms of what you consider culture (which is a big part of culture), with tv and movies and music and sports and magazines, you can see what I mean. You have the rap/hip hop culture with the BET television, which is very closely tied with the basketball culture and the black magazines. You have the pop culture with teen movies and mass produced teen music and MTV. You have the business culture that has more (what they would call) refined tastes in entertainment. You have the political and governmental culture which is seemingly far-removed from any ties to entertainment culture.

The only umbrella overlying anything you could call American culture is this idea that you are free to have whatever culture you want to. You can be part of whatever you want to be (within limits). There is no law against immorality as long as it is not something malicious or harmful (usually). This idea is the American culture.

So the underlying theme in anything you could call American culture is this idea of open-mindedness. Furism's original quote was "But we have to keep in mind that USA, because they are SURE their culture is the best, always try to impose their way of thinking." This is actually the opposite of American mainstream culture, as I hope I have accurately portrayed it.

[Baddori]

Originally Posted by Schar

Second of all, i disagree, this is not a continuation of the Gulf War. This is a new war, which hasn't started yet. If it starts, the US will fire the first shot. The Gulf War is over, and has been for some time. You said it yourself, the reason for that war was to liberate your ally, which you did. The end. The only similarity with that war is that Saddam Hussein is involved.

Please find me the treaty that ended the Gulf War. There was a cease-fire, UN Resolution 687 (i think). All the resolutions dealing with Iraq that came after that one basically say the same thing, along the lines of "Iraq has not comlied with the cease-fire and other prior resolutions. He must do so." Over and over and over it says this. All the resolutions stem from Saddam's violations of the GULF WAR CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT. The present situation is 100%, ALL descended from the Gulf War.

Do you know what a cease-fire agreement is? It is an agreement to stop attacking. It can contain certain requirements, which, if violated, nullifies the agreement.

That is what is going on. If you say otherwise, show me the evidence.

[Yeta]

All war is bad, some wars are better then others, prime examples of just wars being WW2 and the Civil War. War can and has accomplished great things, but there are other ways to deal with Saddam and his regime.
Simply put Saddam on trial for his crimes against his own people, and then have the U.N. put peacekeeping troops in Iraq while the U.N./America builds a puppet government, like Afghanistan. But this time, it will work well, because the puppet government will have oil, unlike Afghanistan, which has very few resources and ways to keep a steady cash flow. And no, drugs don't count.

War in Iraq is a bad idea. Removing Saddam is a great idea. Why didn't Papa Bush just kill him? Please enlighten me if I am "wrong".

P.S. The excuse that we actually couldn't find him to kill him isn't acceptable.

[Baddori]

The problem with that is that Saddam's regime isn't just one man. If we killed Saddam, the rest of his supporters would still be there ready to coup the state again once we left.

Papa Bush didn't kill him because A) that wasn't the objective at the time and he didn't have a crystal ball to know that Saddam would flout the cease-fire agreement and B) If he had wanted to, liberals like you would have done what you are doing to his son now anyway.

[Tuco]

lol, I could make a long ass post correcting all the foreign folks who think we're all proud and solid in our beliefs...

but really... I don't have time to talk to such... uneducated people! at least in 'american culture'...

And american culture is very diverse, as it was(as been stated) a 'melting pot' so you'll see a lot of each type of culture in it, and little sections!

Slightly unrelated, but very related to war...

www.hackworth.com