The Greeks (Fraternities and Sororities)

[splok]

Originally Posted by Wrathcaster

I'm not speaking on behalf of myself, I'm speaking on behalf of a good portion of the population here who simply can't afford to spend extra money on what amounts to a social club: people who have to work one if not more jobs to keep up the pace in college and still manage to keep grades up to the level where they can maintain their GPA for scholarships. Perhaps you can suspend your disbelief a bit to understand that I can see an issue from multiple points of view.

These organizations are a business. They need money to do the things that they do, and a large part of that comes from dues. They could charge less, but that could hurt the organization in a number of ways. Additionally, being fully involved can be very time consuming, and if a person needs to work excessively outside of class, they aren't going to have time for it. Maybe that sounds shitty, but these aren't just clubs that you can pop in ans show up whenever you want. Its almost like a raiding guild. If you don't have the time to participate, you shouldn't bother applying. Of course, as with everything, the time commitment required varies hugely between groups, but most of them have mandatory events at least semi-frequently. I worked during my time, but not very many hours, and I always made sure my work schedule wouldn't interfere. That may sound like having fucked up priorities to you, but wouldn't a group prefer to have members that give priority to the group over other things, if there was a choice?

Granted, my campus wasn't really that expensive, so it might be different in other places, but most of the time, when someone would complain about the cost, it wasn't that they weren't able to come up with the money, it was just that their budget didn't place a high enough priority on paying dues. People complain about not being able to afford dues but are perfectly cool with dropping god knows how much every weekend at bars or on other shit that college kids waste tons of money on. Sure, that's not the case for everyone, but it is pretty common.

Originally Posted by Wrathcaster

That type of information caters to a specific type of person, and eliminates a whole host of potentially excellent people that didn't fit a particular mold before joining.

By nature, people tend to gravitate toward people that are very much like themselves. This may not be the best way to behave, but it happens regardless. Also, you have to realize that when you have 19-20 year olds essentially making human resource decisions about how and who to recruit, you're going to end up with less than optimal results very commonly. Of course, that's not to say that it isn't a problem, but it's more of an explanation than an excuse. It's not as if there's a national policy that says "only recruit people in this brand of shoes!" Its just the work of a few undergrads who may or may not be qualified to do their jobs.

Really, its very likely that few people in leadership positions in any undergrad organizations are actually qualified for them. They just don't have enough experience. However, they get those positions anyway and struggle with them as best they can, and the ones that really invest themselves in their groups grow and develop hugely because of it. So ya, it means that there will always be a certain amount of shittiness, but at the same time, that's really the big benefit that these organizations provide.

Originally Posted by Wrathcaster

And before you mention "YEAH BUT THAT'S ONLY SOME NOT MINE" more than one chapter of the frats mentioned in this thread were culprits.

Each chapter is its own animal. My SigEp chapter is nothing like the other SigEp chapters that I've visited, and I'm sure members of the other chapters feel the same way. Each national organization has its set of policies that each chapter must follow, but the implementation of them and the attitudes are unique to each group of people. This can even change every couple of years within a single chapter as different people come to power. My chapter certainly has a different environment now than when I was there. It's easy to point at a group name and say "those guys are asshats" because of a shitty experience you had with their chapter at your campus, but when you do that you're really only referring to that specific group of 50-100 people (and even then, the problem is likely the result of a couple of people's decisions). For most of these stories of extreme asshattery, there are likely thousands of other people within the same national organization that would agree that the people involved were being asshats.

[lost]

The Greeks... 07-15-2008 11:47 PM Alpha Epsilon Nigger

Too bad Alpha Epsilon Pi is a jewish fraternity, haha! thanks for that -1 internet comment.

[Ritley]

I'm not sure what expenses you are talking about honestly. I know some schools have the 1 year in dorm thing, and mine does too EXCEPT when joining a fraternity/sorority. If you rush, you can move straight in and never even live in the dorms.

There is no doubt in my mind that I save tons of money living in a fraternity over the dorms, and it is about the same, maybe a little cheaper, than living in an appartment.

[Ritley]

Originally Posted by lost

Too bad Alpha Epsilon Pi is a jewish fraternity, haha! thanks for that -1 internet comment.

Someone is giving that standard internets to everyone, because I got it too. The fucktard cant even be original and make different comments.

[Pinchandroll]

disclaimer: long post

I don't know what school you went to or what fraternities you are talking about Wrathcaster, but the impression I am getting is that you are trying to use the exception to prove the rule. Additionally, I think you are exaggerating the way these fraternities recruit. I won't argue that fraternities do tend to attract "fratty" guys, and I also won't argue that frat pernities tend to recruit guys that will help their image, especially with regards to sororities. However, as you admitted in an earlier post, you are overly generalizing and even though you say you are just trying to give an example of your personal experience, it seems like you are trying to apply it to a broader spectrum and that's where I believe you are wrong.

I don't think anyone would argue that the type of fraternity you are describing is pretty lame: dress code requirements for rushees and members, unreasonable dues, general douchebaggery, etc. However, it seems like the people you are arguing with have had the exact opposite experience. In my experience, the majority of fraternities are NOT the way you described - not even close! But I will concede that the ones you describe probably exist.

As for your arguments... your main focus seems to be money. You claim fraternity dues are often unreasonably high. I would argue that since a large chunk of it goes towards insurance, another large chunk goes towards paying for / maintaining a house, and the rest is distributed amongst fairly "big" activities, $1000 / year is not unreasonable at all. In fact, as cheesy as it sounds, going to a formal in Vegas with some of your closest friends for a weekend, or spending a weekend camping in the forest exploring and hanging out in front of a huge bonfire, or going to the mountains and spending a weekend in a snowed in cabin are pretty much priceless experiences that you'll remember and cherish forever. A thousand bucks for stuff like that seems like a drop in the bucket, especially since you'd be spending probably close to that much anyways on trivial stuff like parties and trips throughout the year anyways.

Now if you want to break it down to a purely financial min/max discussion, I'm not claiming fraternity dues are the most efficient thing. Again I'll bring up insurance, because you wouldn't believe how much it costs. Sure, you *could* attend x numbers of parties, y numbers of trips, and consume z liters of alcohol without joining a fraternity and maybe you'll save yourself 50% of the total cost. But there are a lot of things in life where I concede a little extra money for the sake of the experience. Ex. I went to Mexico for a week and got an all-inclusive hotel package. I suppose I could have planned it all out and paid for hotels, food, activites, etc. separately and saved some cash. But the group I went with had all planned on getting the package, and it was quick, planned out for me, and it guaranteed we could do everything together with no worries. I view fraternity costs similarly: yes, technically I could befriend a member of each fraternity and get myself an invite to the parties I wanted, and I could plan my own trip to Vegas and invite my friends along, and I could take my girlfriend out to a nice restaurant and a club with friends instead of going to a formal... but that's not what I'm looking for, because even with all these financially efficient plans, I'm probably missing out on a lot of fun stuff that a fraternity has to offer.

I don't think it's worth discussing your statement that "any social club that excludes someone on a financial basis is shitty." I think that line of thinking is critically flawed but I doubt I'll be able to convince you. Suffice to say, pretty much every organization needs money to stay afloat. If you stop "excluding" people who can't pay, your fraternity probably won't last long because you'll end up with a ton of freeloaders and a bunch of unpaid expenses. Additionally, I don't think $1000 / year is a ridiculous cost at all. A single WoW account will run you what... 200 / year? And most people would agree that monthly WoW payments are barely a blip on the financial radar. You get rid of a couple expensive meals per month and save $20 / month, then you work ONE extra hour per week at like 10 dollars per hour and gain another $30-40 / month. So with minimal sacrifice you can easily make the money; I don't see how the average college student can complain about an additional $1000 / year when lots of that cost comes out of stuff you would have done anyways, and when you are paying tens of thousands for tuition / housing anyways. Of course there are circumstances where a guy is literally working full time and taking a full courseload, and to him I would say that a fraternity might not be the right choice because if you are legitimately THAT swamped and you CANNOT compromise for that extra money, then something's gotta give. Unfortunate, but again, I personally can't think of anyone who is unable to earn another $1000 / year with very little extra effort. I CAN think of many people who don't WANT to, but I don't think that's a legitimate argument against fraternity dues.

Your second point deals with stuff like clothing requirements... First, I agree that that is a stupid idea and I wouldn't even consider joining a fraternity like that. But as I said before, I've never encountered something even close to that, and I've associated with a fair number of Greeks (my own fraternity, of course, and many guys from various other fraternities). Additionally, my friends from other schools that I talk to regularly have plenty of stories about idiots in the Greek systems there, but I rarely (never?) hear about the arbitrary, stuck-up type requirements you are describing. I'm sure there are weird, douchey frats with requirements like these, but I believe they are relatively rare compared to geniunely good ones, so I don't think it's fair to use this argument as leverage against the fraternity system in general.

I'd be interested in hearing what school you're at, and what fraternities specifically are pulling this crap. I just have a feeling that in general, fraternities are the opposite of what you're describing, and you are clearly disdainful towards the whole system in general, and therefore 'our' defense of "They're not all like that and you are overgeneralizing" is pretty legitimate.

Wow, that was quite an essay, but I had plenty of time on my hands tonight. Hopefully this doesn't get ignored because I think it hits a lot of they key points brought up in this thread.

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Eomer

I've never gotten the whole frat thing. Up here in Canuckia they're nowhere near as popular as down South, and typically those who are in them are looked down upon as jackasses.

Part of that is because fraternities aren't allowed at a number of Canadian universities.

EDIT: I will say personally that a good friend of mine was former fraternity and that he was one of the nicest guys I ever met. I met several of his fraternity brothers through him and they were all nice folks and two of them were able to help me out with some crap I got into because I was friends with a brother. Then again, this is up in Canada where the fraternity thing is more like how it 'should' be, IMO.

[fat12]

My friend would get cattle prodded during his pledgeship.

[Chips]

I got accepted into Delta Tau Delta but declined to join because there was 3 openly gay guys in the fraternity and I was suspicious of a couple others. I really didnt want to pass out drunk one night and wake up with a sore ass.

[Dammerung]

I wasn't cursed with the complete lack of social skills necessary to be forced to pay hard cash for the chance to fuck hambones and cokeheads. And by "fuck" I mean "date rape".

[Divinefactor]

Originally Posted by Dammerung

I wasn't cursed with the complete lack of social skills necessary to be forced to pay hard cash for the chance to fuck hambones and cokeheads. And by "fuck" I mean "date rape".

So you drive a taxicab and pick up these said hambones and cokeheads on the way home from the bar...

Everyone pays, no one rides for free.

[CabbitCabbit]

I was once at a party on frat row where two large groups of people got into a fight because one group had shouted "Motocross is for fags!"

Seriously all my experiences have been with Bros, Dudes, Dudebros, Brodudes, and Brocifers who think rolling rock is a high tier beer, Carlos Mencia is the greatest man to ever live, and that all day family guy marathons are a god send on sunday afternoons (it's really not that funny of a show guys).


I don't know, maybe it's an ohio thing.

[Divinefactor]

I once saw a country get into a fight with another country because one group shouted "Alllah is the One True God"

[Eomer]

(it's really not that funny of a show guys)

You will pay for those words.

[AdroitCelerity]

I Phelta Thi alum

[boozebagbeefhole]

I think what we are all missing is that college, no matter what your allegiance to some greek organization or not. the point is to get drunk and have sex with a bunch of random bitches before you graduate and step in to the real world.

Just remember folks plant the seed and fuck the plant.