The Girls Who Broke Your Heart Thread

[chu]

Originally Posted by Pasteton

But see this is exactly my point of frustration. I enjoy putting 'stuff in' so to speak and i'm not really looking to get something back, to me this would just seem so..mechanical? As an example that same g/f, I'd get excited if I came up with something I think she'd like, not necessarily a gift but some activity or event that she'd enjoy, or a gay poem or whatever. I looked forward to making her happy, etc, but not to get anything back, it's just natural I think to feel good by making others feel good, or something like that? But I totally can see how to the girl or someone on the outside looking in, it comes across as me being desperate. Honestly I don't know exactly what i'd want 'back' anyhow; if basically getting something back is sex, then no, that's not it for me, if i wanted sex that bad i'm only a few hundred dollars away from a highclass hooker. Do I want her approval? that's probably what she thinks, but personally I don't even think it's about that - I do it more because I enjoy it myself. Hell I know i get a bigger kick out of doing things/giving things than she does receiving them, and i'm fine with that. If she doesnt like something i do then sure i'd be disappointed, but that would be true for anyone; i recently got a friend a shitty bday gift and felt terrible afterwards.

I just don't think much about what my expectations are, or what i 'want' from someone else. As a person I'm just much more focused on what i can 'do' for others, and what others want. This applies to interpersonal relationships in general for me, not just g/f's. I'm not trying to praise myself at all; it's just how I am, yet somehow I feel like i'm being punished because of it, or that my g/f's dont respect me because of it.

I feel like I'm forcing myself to be mean or selfish simply because I don't want to look like a tool to her, even though apparently being a tool is what comes naturally to me. Most guys are doormats because somewhere inside of them is some lingering hope that if they hang on enough the girl will suddenly 'see the light' and fall for them (the 'This could turn it around for vanguard' personality type). But I'm just a doormat to the core; without a purpose, rhyme or reason.

How experienced are you with relationships of any sort? It sounds (and don't take this the wrong way) that you're quite new at it from both a romantic and a friendship stance. People that haven't dated often or had many friends in the past, often have your type of outlook.

It won't work in the long run and you should never be around people that don't give as much as they take. It's not worth it. If it seems like you're always calling/driving/planning/paying, break it off and look for someone else whether it's a friend or a girl(boy)friend.

[Tarrant220]

Originally Posted by Eomer

I could totally find a way. I guarantee it.

Go in expecting to fail and you will, stay positive man.

[Vvoid]

So I was listening to the local rock station awhile ago and heard a new band with a female singer, Halestorm. If you've listened to any similar stations you've probably heard their song "I Get Off" about a thousand times by now. I liked the song enough (in a Lita Ford nostalgic way) to acquire the rest of the album, and there is one song in particular that the moment I heard it, I thought of this thread. It's called What Were You Expecting? and is basically talking about how she's not the delicate little flower to be worshiped that lots of men want her to be. I won't quote the entire song, even though it all pretty much applies to this thread, but the last verse is probably the most appropriate.

Everything about you makes me scream
Be a man and get up off your knees
Try to say this in the nicest way

What were you expecting?
Another lullaby?
Are you kidding?
You must be high

She's just saying what most women actually feel, despite what they say. Stand up and be a man, because nice guys really do finish last.*

*This comes from someone that has been that nice guy far too many times, so I'm not without fault by a long shot. And I'm still working on it.

P.S. Totally calling it that this song will be one of their next singles, and be a huge hit. We're due for a "bitchy chick" rock song about now I think.

[Tarrant220]

Nice guys don't finish last, it's just they are the ones more vocal about it when they get hurt, dumped or things don't turn out well.

Dickheads simply don't care, there's a big difference.

You can be a nice guy without being "that guy".

[brekk]

Causation vs. Causality

It's not being nice that's the problem. It's that most guys that are nice, are that way because they lack confidence. Lack of confidence is what girls dislike.

[Brad2770]

Originally Posted by brekk

Causation vs. Causality

It's not being nice that's the problem. It's that most guys that are nice, are that way because they lack confidence. Lack of confidence is what girls dislike.

Yes

Well, I say yes because me being an asshole is probably the fact that I lack confidence. I am an asshole because its my best attempt at fake condfidence.

[Tarrant220]

Originally Posted by brekk

Causation vs. Causality

It's not being nice that's the problem. It's that most guys that are nice, are that way because they lack confidence. Lack of confidence is what girls dislike.

Bingo. Nothing is more unattractive to a woman then a guy who has no confidence...no confidence leads to insecurities and at that point, it's game over.

[Pasteton]

Originally Posted by chu

How experienced are you with relationships of any sort? It sounds (and don't take this the wrong way) that you're quite new at it from both a romantic and a friendship stance. People that haven't dated often or had many friends in the past, often have your type of outlook.

It won't work in the long run and you should never be around people that don't give as much as they take. It's not worth it. If it seems like you're always calling/driving/planning/paying, break it off and look for someone else whether it's a friend or a girl(boy)friend.

I'm probably not as experienced with romantic relationships as most, partly because the few i've been in lasted several years and partly because after one of them i spiraled into a depression that lasted years where i rarely went out in daylight.

I've rarely ever been around people that 'give' as much as me, i think that would be unfair to ask of my friends. If i see something that strikes me as 'hey xxx would like this' i may just get it for him/her, and I don't usually consider 'but xxx never got anything for me' in the decision. I'll also usually be one of the first to try and help someone out if they need it, for example at work, etc. I'll also often be the one driving/planning/calling etc but a lot of that is because I don't give others the chance - no one would think a lot of my friends are 'users' or anything like that, it's just they may come across that way because of how i act.

[Pasteton]

Originally Posted by brekk

Causation vs. Causality

It's not being nice that's the problem. It's that most guys that are nice, are that way because they lack confidence. Lack of confidence is what girls dislike.

Define confidence? This definitely brings up a sour point for me, as my ex and my current g/f both love/loved going off about how i'm not 'confident'. but my g/f's idea of confidence is dressing like a ck model, standing up really straight, and never saying anything unpleasant even if it's reality. I like consider myself honest, and if i ever comment about myself, I am very direct -even if it's something unpleasant or doesnt paint me in a good light - i do the same thing if it's something complimentary as well, it doesn't matter. but my g/f takes it as me raggin down on myself; i'm fine with saying it how it is but to her it bothers her. The irony to me is that i think there is a certain confidence in not fooling yourself, and being fine with it, but she will never realize that about me.

[Aaubert]

i think i figured out who certain people in this thread have been talking to.


http://melodymaker.posterous.com/the-reason-some-girls-stay-single-very-funny

[Alcestis]

A little tired, Pasteton, so bear with me.

There's a multitude of examples that can be used next, but I believe you'll get my meaning. Do you consider yourself "so honest" that you'll tell your girlfriend that a dress she loves looks hideous on her? Are you so "direct" that you'd ever tell her she stinks like an Amsterdam whorehouse after putting too much perfume on, even if that's exactly what you're thinking? No? As a "nice guy", of course not. I suspect you're holding yourself to a double-standard where it's okay for you to be "honest" when talking about yourself but you hold back when it might paint her or others you care about in a negative light. That's horribly easy to spot for a girl, no matter how you try to hide it, being absolute masters of double-speak and all. I'd bet a lapdance from Jenna Haze that that hypocrisy is why it bothered her (and your other woman) so much.

One of the things I've found that's common in good relationships is deference to the injured party. If one person cares deeply or strongly about an issue, and the other one has no real feelings about it either way (and the request is comparatively painless to fulfill), the ambivalent one should hand the reins off. By acknowledging feelings in this way, you quell a lot of hurt and misunderstandings that can just build up and poison everything. It's a hard lesson to learn, and it's an ongoing personal process for me, so if someone would like to speak up and explain more eloquently what I mean, please feel free.

Tying into the above... why is your need to tell the truth out-loud so strong when you know (and you've been told by two girls now no less) that it bothers them? They have an emotional investment, for whatever reason ("It's like you're ragging on yourself", "It makes you look less confident", IT ACTIVELY MAKES YOU LOOK UNATTRACTIVE TO ME so please don't do it", etc.)... and all you have to do is keep your trap shut when it comes to criticism of yourself. That's it. "Just don't say it out-loud" is a reasonable request, easy to fulfill, but you insist on doing it. Why? You're going to be a lonely man if you can't acknowledge that this particular issue apparently means a lot to the girls you like... and you keep doing it. Don't worry; I'm not asking you to lie or, pfft, "fool yourself" - which a silly thought in itself. YOU obviously know what your faults are, vocalizing them or keeping them silent doesn't change a damn thing about those undesirable traits or your belief in them. You can't "fool yourself" that way. What matters is THEIR belief. It's a classic job-review effect where the employee fixates on the bad points instead of the "you do this great" column. As you're not an employer, you don't have to worry about that headache. Lucky you! You can pick at those faults/negatives all you want in your head, fuck, write it down on an LJ if you really need to tell the world. But don't insist on airing your dirty laundry (or doing anything that can be easily stopped, for that matter) when you know it actively hurts someone you're supposed to care about.

tl;dr: Most girls (I've seen, anyway) really do tie unabashed self-criticism to confidence level. Either you find a woman who doesn't believe in that illogical association, or you defer. The latter is hard, but it'll serve us all well to learn.



Eomer: Ha! After the inevitable failure, I'll expect the .ppt on my desk by morning.

[Eomer]

That reminds me, actually. I have a bud who also does the ski bus guiding thing in the winter, and we are often on the same trips together. He is the absolute definition of the alpha male. He's decent looking, but not in the greatest shape. He's got good taste in clothes etc, and he absolutely exudes confidence. When I first met him I figured it was at least partially an act, but the more I got to know him I soon realized that no, he's just "that guy." And one of his favorite moves to pull is the absolute height of cheesiness, but every time he's done it the girl has absolutely melted. He's normally in a serious relationship and doesn't cheat, so he just does it for fun.

It's pretty simple really. If we're at a restaurant or bar and either the server or someone nearby is cute, he'll inconspicuously take a paper napkin and fold it up in to a rose. He's damned good at it, they're pretty decent. Every time I've seen him pull that, the girl is pretty much putty in his hands.

Granted, his personality is what seals the deal, it's not a move I'd be likely to pull off unless I was NOT interested in the girl I was doing it to. I just thought it was worth relating.

One of the funniest times was when we stopped at a little cabin halfway up the mountain that served coffee and burgers. The two of us were wearing Oilers jerseys over our ski jackets. A fairly attractive girl was serving us and he gave her the rose. She instantly melted and the conversation went like this:

"aaaaaawwwwwwwwww. You're so sweet!"

"No, you're sweet."

*girl blushes*

"You've totally made my day."

"No, you made my day."

*group laughs, she wanders off in a daze looking at her prized paper napkin rose. She comes back a few minutes later with another round.*

"So, umm, where are you guys all from?"

*the two of us look at her, look at each other, and chuckle loudly. She immediately turns red.*

"Oh, haha, duh, Edmonton then hey?"

"You're just so pretty."

*She immediately looks like someone slapped her, and she stamps off muttering underneath her breath "unfuckingbelievable"*

It was hilarious how he was playing with her. By the time we left, she'd apologized for being a bitch and was back to eating out of his hand. I wish I had his magic powers.

[Pasteton]

Originally Posted by Alcestis

A little tired, Pasteton, so bear with me.

There's a multitude of examples that can be used next, but I believe you'll get my meaning. Do you consider yourself "so honest" that you'll tell your girlfriend that a dress she loves looks hideous on her? Are you so "direct" that you'd ever tell her she stinks like an Amsterdam whorehouse after putting too much perfume on, even if that's exactly what you're thinking? No? As a "nice guy", of course not. I suspect you're holding yourself to a double-standard where it's okay for you to be "honest" when talking about yourself but you hold back when it might paint her or others you care about in a negative light. That's horribly easy to spot for a girl, no matter how you try to hide it, being absolute masters of double-speak and all. I'd bet a lapdance from Jenna Haze that that hypocrisy is why it bothered her (and your other woman) so much.

One of the things I've found that's common in good relationships is deference to the injured party. If one person cares deeply or strongly about an issue, and the other one has no real feelings about it either way (and the request is comparatively painless to fulfill), the ambivalent one should hand the reins off. By acknowledging feelings in this way, you quell a lot of hurt and misunderstandings that can just build up and poison everything. It's a hard lesson to learn, and it's an ongoing personal process for me, so if someone would like to speak up and explain more eloquently what I mean, please feel free.

Tying into the above... why is your need to tell the truth out-loud so strong when you know (and you've been told by two girls now no less) that it bothers them? They have an emotional investment, for whatever reason ("It's like you're ragging on yourself", "It makes you look less confident", IT ACTIVELY MAKES YOU LOOK UNATTRACTIVE TO ME so please don't do it", etc.)... and all you have to do is keep your trap shut when it comes to criticism of yourself. That's it. "Just don't say it out-loud" is a reasonable request, easy to fulfill, but you insist on doing it. Why? You're going to be a lonely man if you can't acknowledge that this particular issue apparently means a lot to the girls you like... and you keep doing it. Don't worry; I'm not asking you to lie or, pfft, "fool yourself" - which a silly thought in itself. YOU obviously know what your faults are, vocalizing them or keeping them silent doesn't change a damn thing about those undesirable traits or your belief in them. You can't "fool yourself" that way. What matters is THEIR belief. It's a classic job-review effect where the employee fixates on the bad points instead of the "you do this great" column. As you're not an employer, you don't have to worry about that headache. Lucky you! You can pick at those faults/negatives all you want in your head, fuck, write it down on an LJ if you really need to tell the world. But don't insist on airing your dirty laundry (or doing anything that can be easily stopped, for that matter) when you know it actively hurts someone you're supposed to care about.

tl;dr: Most girls (I've seen, anyway) really do tie unabashed self-criticism to confidence level. Either you find a woman who doesn't believe in that illogical association, or you defer. The latter is hard, but it'll serve us all well to learn.



Eomer: Ha! After the inevitable failure, I'll expect the .ppt on my desk by morning.

you're kinda getting now to what i despise about chicks in general, and my g/f in particular. what's so hard openly accepting my faults and still being happy about who i am? I think a person's flaws are just as important a part of who they are as their strengths, maybe she realizes that deep down but the inability to lay stuff out in the open with her pisses me off. While it bothers me to upset her, it bothers me even more to just be ok with her ignoring things about me just to be satisfied with me. i hate how everything needs to be perfect in a chick's world. i could start a whole nother rant about how my g/f is like that but don't wanna get too personal or sidetrack.

oh and you have me pegged incorrectly. i do point out stuff i dont like about her, though i try to do it in a way thats funny/sarcastic etc rather than in-your-face. i do it with others and it works fine, but with her sometimes she does get hurt, which makes it even harder for me because i hate bullshitting about stuff.

[Simas]

Originally Posted by Alcestis

One of the things I've found that's common in good relationships is deference to the injured party. If one person cares deeply or strongly about an issue, and the other one has no real feelings about it either way (and the request is comparatively painless to fulfill), the ambivalent one should hand the reins off. By acknowledging feelings in this way, you quell a lot of hurt and misunderstandings that can just build up and poison everything. It's a hard lesson to learn, and it's an ongoing personal process for me, so if someone would like to speak up and explain more eloquently what I mean, please feel free.

I agree with this but I'd caution to only defer when the injured party makes it clear its important to them.

For instance, I really dont care where I eat. It would often happen where a girl I was dating would say lets go eat, what do you want? Id say I dont care you pick. I've learned most of the girls I've dated hate this. However, in my head I was thinking where I eat does not matter so if she has a preference we might as well go there. Derferring made sense to me.

I dont do that anymore. I still dont care where I eat but that makes it easy to just pick some random place. If she doesnt like it I pick another random place.

My point is deferring when something is really important to someone is kind. De facto deferring makes it seem like you lack confidence.

[Simas]

Originally Posted by Pasteton

you're kinda getting now to what i despise about chicks in general, and my g/f in particular. what's so hard openly accepting my faults and still being happy about who i am?

Other people's views of our faults are often different than our own. No one wants to date a loser. She might think you're nerdy, you might think you're uncool/lame. Some people like nerds, nobody likes lame asses. She can accept you're not a model, she can't accept your ugly. etc etc.