Michael Moore vs. Fred Thompson

[shattuck]

Michael Moore wants to have a debate with Fred Thompson over healthcare. According to Drudge Report, Moore sent this letter to Fred:
(some wierd grammar/spelling errors)

Dear Senator Thompson,

Given that it has been publicly reported in The Weekly Standard, a leading neo-conservative publication, that you support Fidel Castro and the Cuban regime by being a purveyor of fine Cuban exports despite the trade embargo, I was surprised to see your recent op ed in a more traditional conservative outlet, The National Review, regarding my trip to Cuba (I suspect you choose The National Review in an effort to pander to an outlet that had criticized you for your opposition to medical malpractice legislation).

In your May 2, 2007 National Review article, "Paradise Island," you specifically raised concerns about whether my trip to Cuba with 9/11 heroes, who have suffered serious health problems as a result of their exposure to toxic substances at Ground Zero that have gone untreated was somehow going to support Castro ad the Cuban government:

"It always leaves me shaking my head when I read about some big-time actor or director going to Cuba and gushing all over Castro." []Fred]Fred Thompson on Cuba on National Review Online Thompson on Cuba on National Review Online]

Putting aside the fact that you, like the Bush Administration, seem far more concerned about the trip to Cuba than the health care of these 9/11 heroes, I was struck by the fact that your concerns (including comments about CastroÕs reported financial worth) apparently do not extend to your own conduct, as reported in The Weekly Standard's April 23, 2007 story, "From the Courthouse to the White House Fred Thompson auditions for the leading role" (emphasis added):

"Thompson's work space looks just like what the home office of a successful politician or CEO should look like -- though a little messier: a large desk, dark wood, leather furniture, lots of books and magazines and newspapers, a flat-screen TV, and box upon box of cigars -- Montecristos from Havana." []PREVIEW:]PREVIEW: From the Courthouse
to the White House From the Courthouse
to the White House]

In light of your comments regarding Cuba and Castro, do you think the "box upon box of cigars -- Montecristos from Havana" that you have in your office have contributed to CastroÕs reported wealth?

While I will leave it up to the conservatives to debate your hypocrisy and the Treasury Department to determine whether the "box upon box of cigars" violates the trade embargo, I hereby challenge you to a health care debate.

Survey after survey has indicated that health care is one of the top issues to the American voters. Today, more than 46 million people lack health are coverage, including 9 million children. We pay significantly more than any other country in the world -- and get less back. Americans life expectancy is lower than other Ground Zero 9/11 workers live in a society where the Bush Administration has shown more concern about their travel than about their health.

Our debate would provide you an opportunity to appeal to the right wing of the Republican Party by continuing to attack me; it would give me a chance to discuss health care and tell you exactly what happened in Cuba, given your apparent inters; and it would provide the American people an opportunity to see just how serious Hollywood can be, with a purported conservative and an avowed progressive Hollywood personality on stage.

Over the course of the debate, we could specifically address the following issues:

(1) Your work as a lobbyist in light of the fact that the health care and insurance industries have maintained the current health care system through their effective control of the political establishment.

(2) The fact that you raised hundred of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from the health care and insurance industries.

(3) Discuss the fact, highlighted in yet another conservative outlet The New York Sun, that you inexplicably wanted to cut funding for AIDS research. []Archives]Archives - Latest Politics Blog - Latest Politics Blog]

(4) Your relationship with the Frist family and by extension HCA, one of the nation's largest for-profit hospital chains. It has been reported that former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (who was renowned for his over-the-television-screen Schiavo diagnosis) is serving as one of your confidantes on your potential presidential campaign. The Frist family has historically controlled HCA, which paid a record $1.7 billion in civil and criminal fines, including a $631 million penalty for Medicaid fraud -- in other words, ripping off the taxpayers.

(5) Discussing whether Arthur Branch, as the District Attorney of Manhattan, supports a woman's right to choose, gun safety reforms, gay marriage, the trans fat ban and anti-smoking laws (which would impact Cuban cigars, including your Montecristos).

Like American Idol, we could even have the country vote to determine which one of us wins the debate. Though in the spirit of full disclosure, I feel obligated to forewarn you that I was the winner of the 1971-72 Detroit Free Press Debate Award for the state of Michigan.

The winner of our health care debate could even light a Victory cigar with one of your Montecristos (though we may want to consider shopping them to the safe house where I have put a master copy of SiCKO in the event that the Bush Administration tries to seize the film).

Sincerely,


Michael Moore


and then Thompson responded with this video: Breitbart.tv » Exclusive: Thompson Responds to Michael Moore Challenge

Personally I'd love to see this debate with these two getting as dirty as they want, would be a nice break from all the boring, politically correct debates going on right now.

[voodoochile78]

I can't wait for the following to happen:

1) Fidel Castro dying
2) At least 2 generations of Florida Cubans dying.

Seriously, can we get over whatever the fuck JFK did or didn't do back in the early 19fucking60s? Why is there still an embargo on Cuba? Cause they're communist? Oh right, we don't do business with communists, other than the 1 billion of them in China, who could actually pose a credible military threat. Seriously, can someone fucking explain this to me?

As for Cuba's health care system, I read many many years ago that it was ranked #1 by the World Health Organization, so I gotta side with Michael Moore on this one (even though I suspect this thread will degenerate into a discussion about him).

[Szlia]

I think Jack Thompson wrote Fred Thompson his "witty" comeback.

[Eomer]

Typical politician's answer, where he doesn't address any of Moore's points. And even rubs the Cuban cigar in his face.

I seriously doubt Cuba's health care is #1 in the world, I'd recheck your source on that. Typically that goes to a Scandanavian country, Japan, something like that.

[voodoochile78]

Yeah, I was searching through the 2006 World Health Report published by the WHO and couldn't find supporting evidence of that, mostly because I couldn't find an overall ranking of the different countries. They have rankings for individual statistics like life expectency, child mortality, AIDS rates, per capita health care expenditures, etc. It's a monsterous document though (237 pages) and I'm not doing it justice by quickly skimming it for quick rankings.

[Algrinon]

Originally Posted by Eomer

Typical politician's answer, where he doesn't address any of Moore's points. And even rubs the Cuban cigar in his face.

I seriously doubt Cuba's health care is #1 in the world, I'd recheck your source on that. Typically that goes to a Scandanavian country, Japan, something like that.

Throwing the bullshit flag.

Whenever ANYONE needs the best medical care, they come to America. Whether it be the king of Jordan or conjoined twins, they come to America.

Is it perfect? Nope, but it sure beats the shit out of anywhere else.

Incoming leftist statistics but the fact is, you walk into an emergency room, you will be seen.

Moreover, more people learn and develop new medicines and procedures in the US (outside of stemcell bullshit) than outside.

For all the bullshitting Moore does, he should just move.

[voodoochile78]

Originally Posted by Algrinon

Throwing the bullshit flag.

Whenever ANYONE needs the best medical care, they come to America. Whether it be the king of Jordan or conjoined twins, they come to America.

It's perfectly believable that America has the best health care for those who can afford the very best. That's not really the point in statistics that measure health care as it benefits your avereage citizen.

Is it perfect? Nope, but it sure beats the shit out of anywhere else.

America
Fuck Yeah!
So lick on my nuts and suck on my balls

[Kugbok_Fennin]

Its widely accepted that we have some of the best medical schools, facilities, doctors, etc. However, that has nothing to do with the minimum care that is provided to every citizen regardless of income status.

National health care is a communist Idea, FYI.

[Rotanee]

Originally Posted by voodoochile78

I can't wait for the following to happen:

1) Fidel Castro dying
2) At least 2 generations of Florida Cubans dying.

Seriously, can we get over whatever the fuck JFK did or didn't do back in the early 19fucking60s? Why is there still an embargo on Cuba? Cause they're communist? Oh right, we don't do business with communists, other than the 1 billion of them in China, who could actually pose a credible military threat. Seriously, can someone fucking explain this to me?

One idea. Embargo = Tourist industry. Florida's would go to shit if people could vacation there.

Cuba isn't communist either. They have a dictatorship.

[Glaive]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul339.html

Probably the best analysis of our health care situation I've ever read, written by Presidential candidate Ron Paul, a doctor.

[Glaive]

Originally Posted by Kugbok_Fennin

National health care is a communist Idea, FYI.

QFT

Socialized medicine (aka "universal health care") does tend to decrease the gap between the best care and the worst care in a given system, but it does this by reducing all care towards the lowest common denominator, not the other way around.

Like socialism and communism in general, it's a nice idea on paper but fails in application. Yes, capitalism has issues, but the vast majority of those stem from attempts by the government to control various aspects of the system, invariably unbalancing the whole equation and creating negative consequences. Nothing is a better example of this than our current health care system. The more the government has gotten involved the shittier it's gotten.

[tikkus]

FYI: China is not communist. They are very capitalist and fascist.

[voodoochile78]

Originally Posted by Glaive

QFT
Like socialism and communism in general, it's a nice idea on paper but fails in application.

Can you point to other industrialized countries and explain how their nationalized health care systems have "failed in application." You have plenty of places to look, as just about every other industrialized nation has nationalized health care of some sort or another. For example, you can look at Japan, known for being a communist regime...

Yes, capitalism has issues

Reliving the glory days of Rambo III and Rocky IV really have nothing to do with what to do with health care in the 21st century.

but the vast majority of those stem from attempts by the government to control various aspects of the system, invariably unbalancing the whole equation and creating negative consequences. Nothing is a better example of this than our current health care system. The more the government has gotten involved the shittier it's gotten.

The United States government spends more per capita on health care than other industrialized nations, and yet contrary to what you say, it has less involvment in health care than countries with nationalized health care systems.

[voodoochile78]

Originally Posted by tikkus

FYI: China is not communist. They are very capitalist and fascist.

They are not capitalist, but they are making moves in that direction (much like the Soviet Union circa the Yeltsin years). But much like the Yeltsin years in the Soviet Union, it's so incredibly corrupt.

I also wouldn't use the word fascist. Facism has some political theories that are incongruous with China. The word I believe you're looking for is Totalitarian, which most communist regimes ended up being. Remember that a large portion of 20th century history involved bloody wars between the fascists and communists (though both were totalitarian as opposed to the democratic countries of western Europe and America).

[Eomer]

Throwing the bullshit flag.

Throw it all you want. No one's denying that a lot of cutting edge medical research comes out of the US, or that if you've got the money to burn that you'll get good treatment. That's very true. It's also true lots of Europeans go to France for treatment. Same with Japan, and increasingly, India. The US isn't the only medical tourism destination anymore.

But in terms of how the country's overall healthcare system, both public and private, the US frequently is rated alongside various former Soviet countries. Call it "leftist statistics" all you want, it's the truth.

For all the bullshitting Moore does, he should just move.

I am not a fan of Moore and his tactics, but that's a stupid statement to make and the exact antithesis of what the American ideal supposedly is.

Like socialism and communism in general, it's a nice idea on paper but fails in application.

I love how socialized medicine is supposedly automatically doomed to fail from the outset, yet magically every other developed country in the world, most of which have healthier populations and better care, has some form of a socialized universal system. The US is the ONLY country with a "private" system.