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[aychamo_aycono]

Originally Posted by SalaciousTunare

The plane will NEVER take off assuming the treadmill can infinitely match the wheels of the plane.

Essentially all you would have is a plane slowly lurching forward, the treadmill increases speed to compensate, the wheels lurch forwards faster, the treadmill increases thus faster.

Theoretically the plane would never take off, the only force being horizontal thrust, with zero wind current over the wings.

The only jet that would take off would be a harrier or f-22.

You must realize there is no vertical thrust in an airplane's engines, there is only vertical thrust in it's wings.

All this of course assumes an exponential increase in speed of both the treadmill and the wheels.

Think of it this way, if a plane is tethered to the ground with a chain, the fucking plane will not just start flapping around in the air while attached to the fucking ground. The plane must have adequate ground speed to reach the critical low pressure air current over the wing while having high pressure under the wing to create lift. This lift is ENTIRELY environmental, it has nothing to do with the engine or propellor, both of which create horizontal lift only. (again Harrier and F-22 aside which both have vertical takeoff)

Lose Should have read Lonin's post.

[Xurlitil]

Originally Posted by SalaciousTunare

The plane will NEVER take off assuming the treadmill can infinitely match the wheels of the plane.

Essentially all you would have is a plane slowly lurching forward, the treadmill increases speed to compensate, the wheels lurch forwards faster, the treadmill increases thus faster.

Theoretically the plane would never take off, the only force being horizontal thrust, with zero wind current over the wings.

The only jet that would take off would be a harrier or f-22.

You must realize there is no vertical thrust in an airplane's engines, there is only vertical thrust in it's wings.

All this of course assumes an exponential increase in speed of both the treadmill and the wheels.

Think of it this way, if a plane is tethered to the ground with a chain, the fucking plane will not just start flapping around in the air while attached to the fucking ground. The plane must have adequate ground speed to reach the critical low pressure air current over the wing while having high pressure under the wing to create lift. This lift is ENTIRELY environmental, it has nothing to do with the engine or propellor, both of which create horizontal lift only. (again Harrier and F-22 aside which both have vertical takeoff)

shut the fuck up

[Itzena]

Argh.

[Vatoreus]

repost but it applies.

[twiztid_420]

how the fuck am i the only one to say MOOOOOOAR!!!!!

[SalaciousTunare]

Lonin is simply wrong.

By his logic a fan boat with a top speed of 10mph, could go against the current of a 10mph river and make headway upstream.

IT CANNOT RETARD.

That's the whole fucking point.

The FORCE IS HORIZONTAL NOT VERTICAL. This is about forces, it has nothing to do with what type of force, it only has to do with directional forces. As the plane is on the ground it is at the mercy of a treadmill moving it backwards. It HAS to makeup this deficit directional force in order to achieve flight. This is absolutely no different than the effects of tailwinds and headwinds on a runway takeoff. It is the opposite of a steam catapult on an aircraft carrier. All are forces exerted on the plane achieving different effects. Do you argue that tailwinds and headwinds and steam catapults have zero effect on take offs? No, they are all different forces affecting the airplane. If the runway was mud instead of flat pavement, that would be another force (friction) Man were you guys fucking asleep in physics or what.

Basic physics man, as the plane is on the ground the thrust for takeoff is entirely horizontal up to the moment the adequate pressure imbalance is achieved of airflow over the wings.

Up until that moment for all intensive purposes that airplane is a LAND vehicle.

[Vatoreus]

Originally Posted by SalaciousTunare

for all intensive purposes

are you fucking kidding me?

[SalaciousTunare]

intents and purposes sorry I was typing pretty furiously

[Tallyn]

Originally Posted by SalaciousTunare

Lonin is simply wrong.

By his logic a fan boat with a top speed of 10mph, could go against the current of a 10mph river and make headway upstream.

IT CANNOT RETARD.

That's the whole fucking point.

The FORCE IS HORIZONTAL NOT VERTICAL. This is about forces, it has nothing to do with what type of force, it only has to do with directional forces. As the plane is on the ground it is at the mercy of a treadmill moving it backwards. It HAS to makeup this deficit directional force in order to achieve flight. This is absolutely no different than the effects of tailwinds and headwinds on a runway takeoff. It is the opposite of a steam catapult on an aircraft carrier. All are forces exerted on the plane achieving different effects. Do you argue that tailwinds and headwinds and steam catapults have zero effect on take offs? No, they are all different forces affecting the airplane. If the runway was mud instead of flat pavement, that would be another force (friction) Man were you guys fucking asleep in physics or what.

Basic physics man, as the plane is on the ground the thrust for takeoff is entirely horizontal up to the moment the adequate pressure imbalance is achieved of airflow over the wings.

Up until that moment for all intensive purposes that airplane is a LAND vehicle.

Yeah, but what force does the treadmill exert on the plane? Beyond the normal (perpendicular) force, none, except for a minor amount of friction spinning the wheels. Essentially all of the energy from the engine goes to moving the plane forward through the air. The wheels just spin faster. Tailwinds and headwinds are an entirely different beast, since the air, *not the ground* is the relevant medium to think about for planes.

[Stoerm]

Originally Posted by SalaciousTunare

Lonin is simply wrong.

By his logic a fan boat with a top speed of 10mph, could go against the current of a 10mph river and make headway upstream.

IT CANNOT RETARD.

That's the whole fucking point.

The FORCE IS HORIZONTAL NOT VERTICAL. This is about forces, it has nothing to do with what type of force, it only has to do with directional forces. As the plane is on the ground it is at the mercy of a treadmill moving it backwards. It HAS to makeup this deficit directional force in order to achieve flight. This is absolutely no different than the effects of tailwinds and headwinds on a runway takeoff. It is the opposite of a steam catapult on an aircraft carrier. All are forces exerted on the plane achieving different effects. Do you argue that tailwinds and headwinds and steam catapults have zero effect on take offs? No, they are all different forces affecting the airplane. If the runway was mud instead of flat pavement, that would be another force (friction) Man were you guys fucking asleep in physics or what.

Basic physics man, as the plane is on the ground the thrust for takeoff is entirely horizontal up to the moment the adequate pressure imbalance is achieved of airflow over the wings.

Up until that moment for all intensive purposes that airplane is a LAND vehicle.

How can this topic bring out such an endless supply of thickheaded fuckers so consistently?

[...]

Originally Posted by Vekruul Shuth

Holy shit!

Have that in a higher res?

The first one I scanned was of such a high resolution that it wouldn't upload. it's from national geographic. thats why there's a page crease.

[Lewstelamon]

Thats awesome, I don't have a pic saved but do you guys remember when someone put that giant thing on the Happy Feet myspace right after it came out? That was pure win

EDIT: Chips beat me to the reply earlier, but a pic would be grand!

[SalaciousTunare]

Originally Posted by Tallyn

Yeah, but what force does the treadmill exert on the plane? Beyond the normal (perpendicular) force, none, except for a minor amount of friction spinning the wheels. Essentially all of the energy from the engine goes to moving the plane forward through the air.

Wrong, Objects in motion wish to remain in motion, objects at rest wish to remain at rest.

Turning on a treadmill that a plane is resting on, will not spin the wheels in a real world scenario, the only way the wheels would spin is in a frictionless world.

Again, the engine does NOT move the plane forwards through the air, it creates sufficient force to overcome the friction of the wheels, thus moving the plane along the ground until the necessary lift on the wings is achieved. This is why a headwind is favorable for takeoffs, and why steam catapults can make a fighter take off on shorter distance on an aircraft carrier. These are additional positive forces, where a treadmill working against the plane would be like a negative force like extreme tailwind. It is very very possible that a strong enough tailwind can prevent takeoff as well.

This is real world shit where they plan which end of a runway to start at for takeoff depending on the direction of the winds.

Runways are paved, and they're not uphill for a reason. Planes have wheels instead of square blocks for tires all for a fucking purpose. The purpose being so that the plane achieves sufficient ground speed which in turn creates enough air current over the wings for liftoff.

In real world scenarios, a steam catapult aids in that ground speed, a headwind aids in the increased air current over the wings. Conversely a tailwind hinders air current over the wings or a fictional moving runway in the wrong direction would achieve an similar negative effect. It is entirely possible that a tailwind could be strong enough theoretically to render takeoff impossible. Well, not on Earth because of the limitations of our weather, but you get the idea.

[Xurlitil]

^Hey look, I just countered every point you just made in that post while I was making mine. Look at how stupid you are.

Originally Posted by SalaciousTunare

Lonin is simply wrong.

By his logic a fan boat with a top speed of 10mph, could go against the current of a 10mph river and make headway upstream.

IT CANNOT RETARD.

stupid stuff here

PhysOrgForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums -> Plane on conveyor... Will it ever take off?

Somewhere in that 600 page thread there is a post that mathematically proves beyond any doubt that the plane will take off. Someone got all the specs on a commercial jet's landing gear, very expensive bearings included, and calculated out how much drag they create.

The answer is: the drag created by landing gear is so insignificant compared to the thrust from the planes engines that it doesn't make a fucking bit of difference.

So even if the conveyor belt could move in the opposite direction at a thousand miles an hour, the wheels would just be spinning that much faster as the plane moves forward and gains enough speed for takeoff.

[Screamfeeder]

Person on Treadmill.

Treadmill is set to 500mph.

Person goes flying backwards.

Person gets up and puts on roller skates.

Person laughs at 500mph treadmill.

Person sticks massive rocket up their ass.

Person moves forward.

If person have wings, person take off.