Screenshots: An Honest Conversation

[Millie]

By the way, I've lifted the two-week suspension on Arbitrary and sent him a PM letting him know about it. Hopefully he gets the message and is able to return in a timely manner.

While I do feel his flames were a bit out of line on the rep thread, I also feel that my response was overly harsh and ultimately disproportionate to his actions. I stand by my judgment call on the others involved in that thread, however. I think they knew what they were getting themselves into, and that their temporary suspensions were warranted.

Originally Posted by Sean

I really don't think that you should ban someone just for picking a fight with you - that's extremely childish and uncalled for. Banning someone for rubbing you the wrong way is a pretty blatant abuse of power. It's something I would have done while I was still a teenager and really unwarranted. If you have a beef with someone then use your own posts to shut up them up - don't go "lalala I can't hear you" and toss them away.

Mass spam, line crossing with child crap, out right breaking rules like that should really be the only bans.

No one on the thread I think you're referencing was actually "banned," btw. Some 2-week (and, in one case, 2-month) suspensions were handed out -- one of which has been rescinded (see: above). But no one was banned. Not saying that to argue; just saying that to clarify.

No one has ever been banned, whether permanently or temporarily, simply for disagreeing with me on a thread. People get suspended or banned for flaming or trolling me (or other admins) to an excessive or overly childish degree. Like I said, occasionally we'll go too far. I'll freely admit that. But I don't generally think this is the rule of the day. I think it's rare that someone gets banned or suspended without due justification. And, generally speaking, people have to go pretty far out of their way to get permanent bans around here. It doesn't seem that way, because when you see the word "Banned" under someone's nametag, you can't always tell whether that "Banned" is temporary or permanent. But honestly, very few people are permanently banned. Mistakes get made, however, and I try my best to correct those mistakes when they happen.

[Scientologist]

I fully support a lot of the modding that happens in this board because it is for the greater good.

I do, however, feel that often times, mods can end up abusing their powers for personal reasons. I have personally(on many boards) been the victim of a mod getting too pissed of at me arguing with them. I feel that when a mod posts in a thread and begins to argue a topic that they, out of respect for the rest of us, lower themselves to our level as a normal board member. Too many times have I seen a mod get too personally invested in an argument taking place on a board and end up banning the person they were arguing with just because they can, where if it were any other poster, it would have naturally carried itself out.

Anytime a mod deletes something or bans someone based on what is good or bad for the board, I'm totally cool with that. I only have a problem when mods use their power to "win" or end an argument just because they have the power to.

After all, I'm all about fairness.

[Occido]

Originally Posted by Millie

By the way, I've lifted the two-week suspension on Arbitrary and sent him a PM letting him know about it. Hopefully he gets the message and is able to return in a timely manner.

While I do feel his flames were a bit out of line on the rep thread, I also feel that my response was overly harsh and ultimately disproportionate to his actions. I stand by my judgment call on the others involved in that thread, however. I think they knew what they were getting themselves into, and that their temporary suspensions were warranted.



No one on the thread I think you're referencing was actually "banned," btw. Some 2-week (and, in one case, 2-month) suspensions were handed out -- one of which has been rescinded (see: above). But no one was banned. Not saying that to argue; just saying that to clarify.

I know of one case, Millie, that the date of ban will be lifted says "Never"
Unless it's just not accurate.

[Grave]

I don't care much about Screenshots, but I will say two things:

Keep doing what you're doing Millie, none of us want Screenshots to be 4chan.

Turn off the rep system. It's retarded and makes people act likewise.

[tad10]

I'm not really a FoHSS guy (more of an FoH MGD guy) but IMHO you'll never make everyody happy so just do what you gotta do and leave it at that.

My two cents and etc.

Edit: And, for the record, there's at least one permaban that I never understood (Vaclav banned in FoH MGD not FoH SS so I guess not really relevant to the conversation) as always your house, your rules. I never understood it because I was banned at the same time, same thread, yet mine was only a two month (IIRC can't remember for sure) and his was perma.

Anyway, I think no one wants this to be /b/ so you pretty much have to moderate (people being people).

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Grave

I don't care much about Screenshots, but I will say two things:

Keep doing what you're doing Millie, none of us want Screenshots to be 4chan.

Turn off the rep system. It's retarded and makes people act likewise.

I personally enjoy the rep system. The hilarious negative rep comments I've gotten for being right are a true barrel of laughs.

[Millie]

I love that you got a comment reading "If I were white I'd probably be Sean." LOL. It's kind of a head-scratcher, but it's hilarious for some reason.

[Grooverider]

Posts like this serve almost no purpose in this forum, and really don't belong here. It has little merit.

Screenshots has always been almost entirely organic, and I like it. Sometimes posts get out of hand - that's when a moderator should step in. I really dislike the random appearance of moderator comments that seem to be little more than posturing.

Ah well..

p.s. The 'reputation system' does not belong on this board, it's incredibly out of place.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by Grooverider

Posts like this serve almost no purpose in this forum, and really don't belong here. It has little merit.

I'm honestly very sorry you feel that way.

Screenshots has always been almost entirely organic, and I like it.

And that's the result of moderation, too, you know. Good moderation is about knowing when to intervene and -- most importantly -- when not to intervene. The decision to leave Screenshots alone, for the most part, is still a decision on our part. Everytime I read through a thread on Screenshots and see something crossing a tiny line, and I choose to let it slide because of the board's culture, that's a choice I've made. Those choices are unseen precisely because no intervention takes place. But I consider those choices to be an extremely regular and paramount aspect of my job. I think a less deft hand than some of ours would intervene a lot more frequently or not at all on this board. I'm not saying that to sound self-aggrandizing; I'm just saying that because I want to point out my thought process when I look at these threads. If the culture on this board seems organic, that's because it's been very carefully unfucked-around-with. Grossly out of line threads or posts are dealt with, slightly out-of-line threads or posts are carefully considered, and most threads are considered and ultimately untouched.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Millie

I'm honestly very sorry you feel that way..

I find the rep system moderately amusing (some of my comments on the gmg thread are very amusing) however I do think that administrators/moderators shouldn't be part of the system or at the least should not be up for the internet hero 'prize'. Look at the internet heroes -- 4 of the top 10 are admins/mods (you, Req, Tuco, Dark Millie (aka you) -- I don't know does Tyen count?). I think that folks are going to be hesitant to give you negs and more likely to give you positives just because of who you are (hell I gave Dark Millie a positive for some reason i can't remember right now -- damn you Demon Liquor).

[Millie]

Originally Posted by tad10

I find the rep system moderately amusing (some of my comments on the gmg thread are very amusing) however I do think that administrators/moderators shouldn't be part of the system or at the least should not be up for the internet hero 'prize'. Look at the internet heroes -- 4 of the top 10 are admins/mods (you, Req, Tuco, Dark Millie (aka you) -- I don't know does Tyen count?). I think that folks are going to be hesitant to give you negs and more likely to give you positives just because of who you are (hell I gave Dark Millie a positive for some reason i can't remember right now -- damn you Demon Liquor).

I agree with you on this one. Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd never have been part of the rep system to begin with. But it's a board-functionality/board-enjoyment tool that I think could be fun, and for which Tyen and/or Requiem deserve some due, positive credit. I honestly had nothing to do with rep, for better or for worse.

That said, keep in mind that someone's rep is only as good as the people leaving him or her the comments. If Tuco has a lot of positive rep, or if I have a lot of positive rep, or if Tyen has a lot of positive rep, that's not because we started out that way or willed that into existence. People gave us those comments. Should we not even have comments and rep for ourselves in the first place, given our positions? I dunno. Personally speaking, I don't want rep for myself and don't think it's necessary for me. But it's not my call to make, and since I have my comments turned off ("QQ button," hehe), I think I've more or less removed myself from it.

[brekk]

Originally Posted by tad10

I find the rep system moderately amusing (some of my comments on the gmg thread are very amusing) however I do think that administrators/moderators shouldn't be part of the system or at the least should not be up for the internet hero 'prize'. Look at the internet heroes -- 4 of the top 10 are admins/mods (you, Req, Tuco, Dark Millie (aka you) -- I don't know does Tyen count?). I think that folks are going to be hesitant to give you negs and more likely to give you positives just because of who you are (hell I gave Dark Millie a positive for some reason i can't remember right now -- damn you Demon Liquor).

The internets system covers this entire board. Not just FoHSS. Within this section they're mods within most other sections they're just normal posters. I'd say Millie is one of the more common posters in Music Forum, and Tuco posts often in General, Tyen posts everywhere.

They have a stigma within this section of being mods and nothing more. They post just the rest of us everywhere else.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by brekk

The internets system covers this entire board. Not just FoHSS. Within this section they're mods within most other sections they're just normal posters. I'd say Millie is one of the more common posters in Music Forum, and Tuco posts often in General, Tyen posts everywhere.

They have a stigma within this section of being mods and nothing more. They post just the rest of us everywhere else.

Eh, I'm a fan of many of Millie's posts in the Movie section and elsewhere. I'm not talking about the quality of the posts. I'm just saying that they are recongizable as mods and as such the reaction is a little different than non-mods. Anyway, I don't really care that much so not going to post any more on this thread. FoHguild.org remains one of the stops on the net for me and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Edit: Missed your post Millie -- as noted I find the system pretty amusing. No issues. Props to Tyen and Req.

[Simas]

Originally Posted by Millie

You're free to criticize; I just don't want flames. Like I said, there's a difference. In fact, what you just posted would qualify as fair criticism. :P

Well ok then.

I dont think the vast majority of this board has problems with modding for CP or spam. And if people have problems with the semi-annual clique-busting its been made clear it is policy and they are welcome to quit coming here if they disagree.

I believe the current drama largely stems from people's personal issues with you which were exacerbated by the suspension of Arbitrary and whoever else was punished in his wake.

The long and short of it was Arbitrary was suspended for confusing you, granted he fucked up a common colloquialism, but most people got it. In a thread about that issue Sean posted something alluding to the now infamous Hoofshots slander but to my knowledge no action was taken against him and the threads are now deleted. Tyen routinely posts the same sort of SS as live journal threads that in the past have been lambasted by the mods. The + internets system has been a cluster fuck.

It all plays into a series of what can be seen as double standards and cronyism which you are always some how in the middle of. Combine that with the elephant in the room issues, contrast it with the Millie pyschophants and you are one of the most divisive figures on this board.

Yet most of that has nothing to do with your modding.

Aside from that, which likely wont be discuused, all an honest conversation will consist of is the vast majority of people agreeing its correct to mod CP and spam, the vast majority understanding this is not "our house" but FoH's and people arguing over if the boards are funny or not

Thats why I say it seems rather pointless.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by Simas

The long and short of it was Arbitrary was suspended for confusing you,

That's not true, btw. He was suspended for antagonizing and flaming me in response to the confusion in a manner that was childish and certainly crossed a line. As I've said, my response was overly harsh. That's why I've lifted his suspension and sent him an apology. But to characterize the situation as "Arbitrary confused Millie and then she suspended him" is to misrepresent the situation entirely. I'm trying to be fair to Arbitrary in rescinding his suspension, but in return, you need to be fair to me here. The situation was not nearly as one-sided as you seem to think it was. Arbitrary was flaming and ban-baiting me, I warned him to stop, and he persisted. My reaction was harsh and emotional to an unnecessary degree. But his actions were hardly blameless, either.

Originally Posted by Simas

I believe the current drama largely stems from people's personal issues with you which were exacerbated by the suspension of Arbitrary and whoever else was punished in his wake. ....you are one of the most divisive figures on this board.

Inasmuch as that's the case, this thread is -- at least in large part -- an attempt to try to reach out to people and open a dialogue. Would you rather I just not even bother? I don't know. Perhaps I'm naive, perhaps I'm dumb, and perhaps I'm self-centered, but I try my hardest to rectify my mistakes when I feel I've made them, to rekindle friendships I think I've lost, and to smooth things over with people who have issues with me. This thread is basically my way of saying "Look. I think you guys are cool, and I think I could be cooler. So let's try to be cool." You know what I mean?

Call that posturing if you must, but it's really not. I think that, in the six-odd years that fohguild.org has been around, I've certainly been a divisive figure. Sometimes that's been my fault, and many times it hasn't been. But regardless, I've also tried my best to manage the community with an even hand and a friendly disposition. So this is me, perhaps foolishly and perhaps ultimately in vain, recognizing that there's been some tension lately and trying my best not just to ease that tension, but to constructively address and correct its causes. This thread was not meant to be confined to a referendum on the Arbitrary situation, even though at times it seems to be playing out that way. Really, it's just an attempt at smoothing current tensions and trying to generate some feedback about not just myself, but about the direction of this community in general.