McCain vs. Obama

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Originally Posted by Arbitrary

I'm not digging out my archeology textbooks but many different tribal societies were stable enough and had access to enough food to not need to devote any more time to survival than a US citizen with a 40 hour a week job does.

I'm not able to look up information either, but someone somewhere says you're wrong.

[Kolle]

Originally Posted by Khorum

LOL Like these ridiculous posts? Like any of the posts where I invited you and the devoted Obama fans like you to disprove the burden of 17 years of outright incompetence and dishonesty? Those ridiculous posts?

I mean those IDEALS and your CONVICTION that "conservatives" want to throw the poor and disadvantaged out into the cold when you have been showed PRECISELY that the conservative position of privatization have been PROVEN to improve the lives of billions of human beings across the world. THOSE Ideals. THOSE convictions.

But what did you give us then? Did you admit that your immoral welfare state solutions have been a tragic blight that has imprisoned American poor in a hopeless cycle of despair? Did you admit that american poor folks would in fact be better off if they were able to move their social security funds into robust 401k and IRA programs instead of a moribund government disaster? Did you admit that public housing program in the USA has proven to be a horrific disaster and that the privatization programs in places like Chicago's CHA has realized improvements in two years that FOUR DECADES of public housing couldn't begin to accomplish?

Did you even TRY to acknowledge that the USA runs the largest free public healthcare system in the world and that it is exactly as dysfunctional and in DIRE need of privatization and actuarial regulation as all the other socialized systems that are switching to privatization AS WE SPEAK? Did you even TRY to discuss how bankrupt and ineffective Obama's "healthcare proposal" is? Did you address the fact that if the current federal healthcare budget (including the VA) was converted into a voucher program that the poor folks in this country would be given voucher checks that is over FOUR TIMES MORE than the average national employer healthcare expense of $12,000 a year?

No actually, the appropriate response would've been the presentation of reputable evidence that SUPPORTS your claim that Obama's career shows us a person that resembles the glittering soros' image of a man that can SERVE your interests or even BELIEVE in your causes when in fact his history shows nothing but the worst sort of political vermin imaginable.

The appropriate response would've been to criticize the REAL conservative position of privatization, competition and INDIVIDUAL EMPOWERMENT instead of pretending that your second-hand socialist certitude about the "rich white man out to get you" has any fucking basis in reality at all. The appropriate response would've been logic, reason and the vigorous discussion of the FACTS.

But we can't blame you. No facts exist that could portray Obama as a competent, earnest and sincere politician, the record for that simply isn't there. No facts exist that the New Deal socialist welfare state has EVER DONE THE POOR OF THIS COUNTRY ANY GOOD except for caging poor folks in living conditions that would disgust sub-saharan villagers and locking children in an inescapable disaster of an education system.

No facts exist that any of those IDEALS and CONVICTIONS you pretend to care so deeply about are anything other than the empty promises of a demagogue who sold his integrity to hostile interests almost two decades ago.

Yes, your posts do have some ridiculous content. Obama does have flaws and there are certainly things about him which deserve scrutiny. You take it to the extreme by exaggerating, twisting the truth, and being downright hateful. Some things are just a bit silly like the comment of him not being qualified for any office. It's fair game to question his qualifications for the presidency, but to claim he isn't qualified for any public office is ridiculous.

In this quote you then demonstrate some of what i'm talking about. You call me a devoted obama fan and contribute to me things that I've never even posted about. Some of what you mention I have posted about (in a manner of speaking) as they related to different discussions, but what you're doing is adding on things and twisting it to be something I never typed. You're taking everything you hate about the supposed "liberal obama fans" and attaching it to me for some reason.

I think we've discussed the health care thing into the ground. Every time you bring it up you continue spouting the same nonsense while ignoring everything that's been discussed about it in this thread and others. The USA's systems is bloated, broken, and downright awful compared to other advanced nations. Giving more companies the ability to profit off of something they aren't giving or receiving is not the answer. Instead of making some suit at an insurance company wealthy we need to keep that profit money in the pocket of the citizen. It's already been stated that the average family's health care cost is higher now than it would be with universal health care...even if taxes were raised.

But if you really want let's just create more companies to handle our money. Let's give it to one company that gives it to another and another and another and another...then we finally receive a notice our medical procedure isn't covered because the poor guy had an ingrown toenail 15 years ago and failed to report it. Meanwhile suits are buying their 3rd home off profits from a service they had nothing to do with.

It makes as much sense as giving some guy at the big record company enormous profit for music he doesn't make and doesn't even enjoy listening to. But let's do it anyway so we all have to buy CDs at $20 each, most of which doesn't even reach the artist. Yeah, that's a great model and will hold up forever. Oh wait, it didn't. It's bullshit just like what we have in this country is bullshit. If there was a napster or a radiohead for health care then we'd be on our way. And by that I mean a catalyst for change. As long as you give companies the ability to profit from people on a needed service like health care then too many people will be left out or screwed over to serve the bottom line and make shareholders happy.

A lot of the stuff you post just doesn't mean anything. There's too much supposing and not enough proving. The rezko situation a perfect example. The only thing you have to cling to on that particular topic is that obama will get in serious trouble for it later on since absolutely nothing has come of it.

[Simas]

What does free time and being on the internet have to do with economy?

ZOMG theres 500 people on this message board, that means America is doing great, I mean 500 people having the internet and the free time to use it cert demonstrates prosperity.

Clearly its not shit like unemployment numbers, having the worst month since the depression, inflation etc.

[Arbitrary]

Originally Posted by Dr. Funkenstein

I'm not able to look up information either, but someone somewhere says you're wrong.

You know what, go fuck yourself. I didn't make this shit up. I have taken more than one archeology class where the subject was briefly talked about. I've read it in more than one textbook. This isn't google-fu wikipedia nonsense you ugly cunt. Where do you think all the art primitive societies have created came from?

[I'm Rich Bitch]

Originally Posted by Khorum

Oh look, IRCunt has something important to say so he has to pretend MSNBC can articulate his vacuous faggotry any better than he can.

Too bad he's wrong.

So what is your party going to do with Bush at the convention? Will he speak? Will they send him out of the country? What will the Republican party do with the worse President in the history of the country at their convention? eh?

[I'm Rich Bitch]

I think when Obama delivers a history making speech at the Brandenburg gate during his European trip in front of 100k screaming Germans it will be a remarkable event. So the asset of reading a teleprompter that you so degrade will be even more of a game changer. Democrats used to downplay Ronald Reagan's ability to communicate and give great speeches. They used to say he was just an "actor". I find it funny that the Republicans don't acknolge the importance of speaking since John McCain looks like a retard when he trys to speak.

This will be a game changer:

WASHINGTON--A German friend passed along the news Saturday that local sources in Berlin are confirming that the Obama campaign was in contact with city authorities to discuss the possibility of presumptive Democratic nominee Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) delivering an outdoor address in front of the Brandenburg gate. The thinking is Obama would follow in the footsteps of two very famous Cold War-era speeches of U.S. presidents speaking in Germany: JFK "Ich bin ein Berliner" and Reagan "tear down this wall."

Source

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch

So what is your party going to do with Bush at the convention? Will he speak? Will they send him out of the country? What will the Republican party do with the worse President in the history of the country at their convention? eh?

Listen, Buckwheat, the worst president, as in the president who deregulated the energy industry and allowed Enron to abuse the trust of the American people and the ONLY president to have been impeached in 130 years, will be in the DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION.

George Bush, the man who has earned the undying gratitude of one of the most persecuted people in history and whose decisive action compelled the nuclear disarmament of rogue states like Libya and North Korea will most certainly be celebrated at the Republican Convention. Why wouldn't he be? Was he impeached or even challenged in court or something?

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch

I find it funny that the Republicans don't acknolge the importance of speaking since John McCain looks like a retard when he trys to speak.

There you go slipping on your own dick-flavored drool and hurling yourself down the stairs again...

[Vinen]

Originally Posted by Khorum

Listen, Buckwheat, the worst president, as in the president who deregulated the energy industry and allowed Enron to abuse the trust of the American people and the ONLY president to have been impeached in 130 years, will be in the DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION.

George Bush, the man who has earned the undying gratitude of one of the most persecuted people in history and whose decisive action compelled the nuclear disarmament of rogue states like Libya and North Korea will most certainly be celebrated at the Republican Convention. Why wouldn't he be? Was he impeached or even challenged in court or something?

Khorum, I think that is going a little far. Yeah, he may have done some good but overall I don't think there is much to celebrate about Bush even among republicans (which I guess I fall as? since I think the democratic party is batshit insane currently... hoooray 2 party system!!!!!).

[I'm Rich Bitch]

Originally Posted by Khorum

Listen, Buckwheat, the worst president, as in the president who deregulated the energy industry and allowed Enron to abuse the trust of the American people and the ONLY president to have been impeached in 130 years, will be in the DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION.

George Bush, the man who has earned the undying gratitude of one of the most persecuted people in history and whose decisive action compelled the nuclear disarmament of rogue states like Libya and North Korea will most certainly be celebrated at the Republican Convention. Why wouldn't he be? Was he impeached or even challenged in court or something?

George W. Bush Approval Rating

32%

Bill Clinton Approval Rating

65%

We will see if the Republican Party and the American people agree with you that George W. Bush is a great president. My bet is the Republican party will not invite him to the convention. George W. Bush is a mass murderer. I don't think they want to be associated with him.

Clinton left office with an approval rating at 65%, the highest end of office rating of any President since World War II.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by I'm Rich Bitch

George W. Bush is a mass murderer. I don't think they want to be associated with him.

You don't think at ALL retard. You didn't think when you misplaced Al Gore. You didn't think when you sputtered your faggotry about Tennessee. And you didn't think when you exposed your vicious bigotry and total fucking ignorance with every post. Why should believe you're thinking now?

You have NEVER shown any evidence that you can think and type at the same fucking time. You tink we shud trys to aknolge him nyuk nyuk? You think the people who IMPEACHED Bill Clinton for being a traitor to this country hold him at 65% approval rate? The 110th congress couldn't get a meaningful charge on GWB but you expect anyone to buy your bullshit fucking "Mass Murderer" cunttalk at all?

Hey Kunta Kinte, we ALL see the moveon.org and mediamatters feeds mmmmkay, you're not fooling ANYONE with your purloined "inside infoz" and in fact all you're doing is reinforcing the growing conviction that you've never really had a REAL conviction in your hollow skull that wasn't put there by some dumbass Obama propagandist.

[Kolle]

i'm not sure they even have a choice. if they let bush speak at such a high profile event that includes mccain...it can't do anything but hurt. the portion of mindless voters left that still support bush will vote for mccain regardless. other voters will look at him and have a difficult time not thinking about how his administration willfully misled us all, engaged in aggressive propaganda, and refused to accept any responsibility for their mistakes. any little good they ever did won't matter. unless, of course, they somehow manage to bring gas down to $1.50/gallon.

mccain started out 8 years ago being abused by bush's team in underhanded ways. we know there's no love between them. he then fakes it and supports bush afterward so he can run for president again. then when the time comes they have to separate mccain from bush as much as possible. it's fun to watch.

[Khorum]

Originally Posted by Kolle

In this quote you then demonstrate some of what i'm talking about. You call me a devoted obama fan and contribute to me things that I've never even posted about. Some of what you mention I have posted about (in a manner of speaking) as they related to different discussions, but what you're doing is adding on things and twisting it to be something I never typed. You're taking everything you hate about the supposed "liberal obama fans" and attaching it to me for some reason.

Wrong. You have PERSISTED in the bankrupt belief that SOCIALISM---the belief that altruism and charity is the domain of the STATE---is anything other than the disastrous wreckage of history that it is. You have PERSISTED in that stupid and insipid notion that the profit motive is somehow "evil" and "nefarious" when the whole world stands testimony to the fact that human ambition and self-interest has conquered poverty and oppression wherever free market reforms are welcomed. Socialism collapsed under the weight of its own lies almost two decades ago and you're still there clinging to the CHILDISH BELIEF rich white dudes in "suits" and their pursuit of "profit" is the root of all evil.

That's EXACTLY the sort of uncritical second-hand bullshit I've always railed against Kolle. The PROFIT MOTIVE has transformed China from the disastrous wreckage of the "Great Leap Forward" into the most miraculous economic transformation in Human history. The PROFIT MOTIVE has allowed the broken and starving survivors of Mao's socialist vision to produce the fastest creation of a bigger middle-class than at any other point in history. The PROFIT MOTIVE took 300 million people fout of poverty into a world-class growth economy.

You __KNOW___ why I keep mentioning what I said in that quote. Because you keep pretending that the fucking welfare state has ever done any fucking good for the poor people in this country while in fact New Deal socialism has done nothing but keep poor people living like animals in the ghettoes and poor kids in useless schools and keep poor folks stuck in a social security retirement system that is MATHEMATICALLY DOOMED TO FAIL while rich folks get to retire ten years earlier because new technologies and innovations make 401k's and ROTH retirement plans perform light years better.

But here you're gonna accuse ME of "ridiculous posts" while you have failed to elucidate on anything other than this trite "fuck the suits!" bullshit? You think __I__ give a shit on those "suits"?

No, noone has EVER cheered for the suits, the conservative position has always been about personal choice, individual dignity and economic transformation through robust competition.

Originally Posted by Kolle

I think we've discussed the health care thing into the ground. Every time you bring it up you continue spouting the same nonsense while ignoring everything that's been discussed about it in this thread and others. The USA's systems is bloated, broken, and downright awful compared to other advanced nations. Giving more companies the ability to profit off of something they aren't giving or receiving is not the answer. Instead of making some suit at an insurance company wealthy we need to keep that profit money in the pocket of the citizen. It's already been stated that the average family's health care cost is higher now than it would be with universal health care...even if taxes were raised.

No we've discussed healthcare into the ground because you and EVERYONE who tried to present anything POSITIVE about your so-called advanced fucking nations have always had your own bullshit shoved back down your throats. What "NONSENSE" do you think I've said about healthcare when in fact I supported Kerry's plan for an incentive-based privatized system? Was it NONSENSE that meaningful reform for our healthcare system simply isn't possible without Actuarial Regulation.

Oh wait, is Actuarial Regulation too complex a subject for you? Until you went on this "FUCK THE SUITS" diatribe, I didn't realize how shallow and simplistic your grasp of this and any other social issue truly was. Maybe that explains why you think "simplifying" the explosive growth and robust innovation centers in our lifesciences industry into a bloated and inefficient socialist monstrosity is a good thing.

No, the truth is we stopped discussing healthcare because we've all been shown how socialized healthcare sytems DON'T work better than our system in the US and that even when socialized healthcare DOES work, it even works better in the US like in the VA.

We stopped discussing healthcare because we've seen that your so-called "advanced countries" are so tragically behind in quality of care even in the best-performing socialized British system that an American has almost a 25% BETTER chance of surviving prostate cancer than a patient in the British system (98.4% in the USA vs. 74.4% in the United Kingdom). We stopped discussing healthcare because in your so-called "advanced countries" women had at least a 7%-10% higher chance to DIE of Breast Cancer than in the USA. That chart is from the OECD's own citation of the Commonwealth Fund's own report.

Ultimately it's because of that performance that we we stopped discussing healthcare in your "advanced countries", because those very same "advanced countries" have been moving AWAY from the moribund and ineffective socialized healthcare solutions and have been privatizing their healthcare systems to improve quality of care to that of the US system. Even our hoser neighbors up north have been seeing a grass roots revolt by their OWN DOCTORS and caregivers to improve the quality of their institution by privatizing their own facilities.

We stopped discussing healthcare because you never HAD any solid evidence of how "advanced" those countries really were, because they weren't. In fact we stopped discussions about socialized healthcare because it's becoming clear that those socialized healthcare systems were busy privatizing to catch up with your "bloated" and "broken" American system.

Why are those British and Canadian doctors so desperate to move to a more similar system that Americans already enjoy? Is it simply to make the "suits" even richer? No, it's because SELF-INTEREST and the profit motive is precisely what has driven innovation, improved efficiency, raised survival rates and SAVED LIVES.

Originally Posted by Kolle

Yes, your posts do have some ridiculous content. Obama does have flaws and there are certainly things about him which deserve scrutiny.

A lot of the stuff you post just doesn't mean anything. There's too much supposing and not enough proving. The rezko situation a perfect example. The only thing you have to cling to on that particular topic is that obama will get in serious trouble for it later on since absolutely nothing has come of it.

What was ridiculous about Rezko's content? Are you denying that fact somehow? Are you denying the evidence shown by the London Times and the Chicago Tribune about Obama's history of pandering to every whim Rezko muttered? You've never disputed that and I've always been respond to any questions about the matter but it seems your only defense is "SO WHAT?!? NOTHING'S HAPPENED". But a federal prosecution takes its own pace and NOTHING could have happened until the first conviction has been secured.

And now that Rezko is behind bars we really DO see momentum, the next wave of indictments have JUST come out (over a month after Rezko's) including the doctor that helped Rezko manage the Public Health contracts that he sold to blackmailed contractors. Exactly the sort of state contracts that Obama spent his entire career procuring for rezko. Anyone who thinks Obama won't be implicated in this is even more deluded than the usual Obamaniacs.

[Kolle]

Wrong, you have PERSISTED in the bankrupt belief that SOCIALISM---the belief that altruism and charity is the domain of the STATE---is anything other than the disastrous wreckage of history that it is. You have PERSISTED in that stupid and insipid notion that the profit motive is somehow "evil" and "nefarious" when the whole world stands testimony to the fact that human ambition and self-interest has conquered poverty and oppression wherever it is welcomed. Socialism collapsed under the weight of its own lies almost two decades ago and you're still there clinging to the CHILDISH BELIEF rich white dudes in "suits" and their pursuit of "profit" is the root of all evil.

That's EXACTLY the sort of uncritical second-hand bullshit I've always railed against Kolle. The PROFIT MOTIVE has transformed China from the disastrous wreckage of the "Great Leap Forward" into the most miraculous economic transformation in Human history. The PROFIT MOTIVE has allowed the broken and starving survivors of Mao's socialist vision to produce the fastest creation of a bigger middle-class than at any other point in history. The PROFIT MOTIVE took 300 million people fout of poverty into a world-class growth economy.

You __KNOW___ why I keep mentioning what I said in that quote. Because you keep pretending that the fucking welfare state has ever done any fucking good for the poor people in this country while in fact New Deal socialism has done nothing but keep poor people living like animals in the ghettoes and poor kids in useless schools and keep poor folks stuck in a social security retirement system that is MATHEMATICALLY DOOMED TO FAIL while rich folks get to retire ten years earlier because new technologies and innovations make 401k's and ROTH retirement plans perform light years better.

But here you're gonna accuse ME of "ridiculous posts" while you have failed to elucidate on anything other than this trite "fuck the suits!" bullshit? You think __I__ give a shit on those "suits"?

No, noone has EVER cheered for the suits, the conservative position has always been about personal choice, individual dignity and economic transformation through robust competition.

No, what you support is the continued raping of american citizens. At no point have I advocated that america become completely socialist. Some things don't deserve a tag of any kind. Everyone should have access to fire and rescue when needed. Everyone should have access to law enforcement when needed. Everyone should have access to food and water when needed. Everyone should have access to medical care when needed.

It's very simple. These things should never carry a political label. If we do things the republican way this will not happen for a very long time. The only time it would is when technology becomes so advanced that you can make people immune to everything at the push of a button while using almost no resources. There shouldn't be some middleman profiting off of people's illness when they are providing nothing of substance to the process. That's a lot of wasted money for the citizen and the government.

Even if mccain wins and everything goes just as he claims, there will still be millions without insurance. Insurance companies will still be shoving their dick up sick people ass. Drugs will still cost a million times more than they do in other countries. Families will still be spending more per year than they would if we had universal health care and even extra taxes. He wants to make it easier to afford. He wants to make drugs cheaper. Unless he forces companies to take huge cuts in profit this will not happen.

paraphrase: America's health care is superior

for those who actually get access to the best

What was ridiculous about Rezko's content? Are you denying that fact somehow? Are you denying the evidence shown by the London Times and the Chicago Tribune about Obama's history of pandering to every whim Rezko muttered? You've never disputed that and I've always been respond to any questions about the matter but it seems your only defense is "SO WHAT?!? NOTHING'S HAPPENED". But a federal prosecution takes its own pace and NOTHING could have happened until the first conviction has been secured.

And now that Rezko is behind bars we really DO see momentum, the next wave of indictments have JUST come out (over a month after Rezko's) including the the doctor that helped Rezko manage the Public Health contracts that he sold to blackmailed contractors. Exactly the sort of state contracts that Obama spent his entire career procuring for rezko. Anyone who thinks Obama won't be implicated in this is even more deluded than the usual Obamaniacs.

What I'm saying is that obama is clear at the moment. What you seem to be saying is that he'll get in trouble somewhere down the line for all these illegal things he supposedly did.

If you have proof that he did something illegal then go put it to good use. Why wait until he gets elected? So far you're just guessing that he's guilty of something illegal.

If he truly did some evil shit then fine, I don't want him to win. So go ahead and help put him behind bars.

[Soriak]

The PROFIT MOTIVE has transformed China from the disastrous wreckage of the "Great Leap Forward" into the most miraculous economic transformation in Human history. The PROFIT MOTIVE has allowed the broken and starving survivors of Mao's socialist vision to produce the fastest creation of a bigger middle-class than at any other point in history. The PROFIT MOTIVE took 300 million people fout of poverty into a world-class growth economy.

The PROFIT MOTIVE has also turned the olympic sailing waters into this:



When athletes have to delay their arrival because of health concerns, that's not a great sign.

There are good reasons to favor the private market over government-run services, but that doesn't mean there's no place for government to enforce or regulate certain things.