MMOs as an outlet for [future] child predators?

[Vatoreus]

What laws are they violating? Point to the law books where it says it's illegal, because as many have said here, it isn't. Even virtual depictions of pedophilia aren't against the law, as no actual children were used/abused.

I'm not saying what they are doing is right, because it isn't, just not illegal.

Oh and yes, I am a parent. Fuck off kindly, thanks.

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by AndersJ

Well this topic is on the WoW General Forum. Someone from Ravenholdt stated they had caught one of the guild members trying to push this form of cyber on another person but Blizzard deleted the thread.

Either way, this screenshot got posted:

I don't even know what to think.

I know what to think. Lillith is a pedofile.

I said it there, but it was deleted, but it's worth saying again. This is what interest groups do. They find a place with high populations of people. They get their views out there with loud mouths, trying to portray an air of having big numbers behind them, even though in reality, they ARE the minority. They seek to endoctrinate and intimidate. They have no real interest in the game.

Then they threaten with the ACLU, Coalition for the Freedom of Speech and any other big name they can throw out there in order to get their political agendas heard.

Right now there is a fight where any law that is proposed to fight child pornography (Amber Law, Section 2257 of 18 USC, Jessica's Law, etc.) is tested unmercifully against the First Amendment banner. It's not that the US Supreme Court thinks child pornography is good, it's that the laws being presented are deemed "overly broad", so they are either remanded back to be heard or revised again. That's pretty much where we are at, but, we are making progress in the fight against child pornography.

The more the laws tighten against them, the more they seek to get the word out under the guise that your freedom of speech is at stake. This is big business to the pornography industry so they will use any tactic they can to secure what makes them money.

That includes infiltrating games that boast 9 million accounts, because someone will be endoctrinated where they were not before and that builds numbers. And numbers ultimately, vote.

What disgusts me is .. besides just being disgusting.. is that they are not there to play a game. They have no interest whatsoever in WoW. They are there under a smokescreened, political facade. And they admit they could (quote) "care less about your kids" - Avela - (unquote).

[Tananthalas]

"Any society that will give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" Benjamin Franklin

I don't agree with the subject matter, but so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others there is no call for anything to be done. We've lost enough of our personal liberty over the last 100 or so years that I don't see this as something we need to lose more over. The second any of that shit hits an open/public channel ban their asses.

Also bear this in mind, when Benjamin Franklin was alive the average marrying age for a woman was right around 11-13 years old. For a man it was 20-25ish. 30 for a man was not that uncommon. It had been that way for hundreds and hundreds of years. It was like that up to and past the civil war as well, but it was not as common. Before that in most of the world it was acceptable to have sex with what we would call children or a child age. Even in today's world are there an abundance of places where the age of consent has not been established or where it is lower than America's age of consent.

I realise 95% of this board can't see past their own noses, but historically speaking there is nothing abnormal about this. I stress again I do NOT agree with it, but I'm wise enough to know that I don't have to agree with something for it to exist and so long as it infringes not upon my rights or my children's rights, I really won't pitch a fit over it.

[torrent495]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

It's not illegal and as I'm not religious, there really is no moral/ethical conflict.

O/T, it's interesting how you connect religion and morality like that.

The question is whether MMOs--these virtual worlds--should have moral standards in terms of what kind of behavior is allowed or tolerated. It's also a question that applies to the larger internet, including fohguild.org. What happens if someone starts an "ageplay" thread on FOH screenshots? Does the thread get deleted? The line between what is acceptable and unacceptable, and between what is virtual and what is real, is often a blurry one.

Some have made the argument in this thread that there is no connection between acting out sick fantasies online and the incidence of such sick acts occurring in real life. But to make that argument is, ultimately, to argue that culture and environment has no effect on human behavior. The communication technologies of the world wide web have enabled the creation of a number of subcultures that simply would not exist otherwise, or if they did exist would not be a thousandth of the size. People can engage in activities and shared interests for which they have no outlet in real life. This is a good thing in most cases, but it can also be a very bad thing. Pedophiles find and engage in explicit "ageplay" with other pedophiles. Yes, it's virtual, it's not real, and most of it will remain that way. But in a community of a hundred thousand people, all it takes is one person to be emboldened and encouraged by virtual "ageplay" for a terrible crime to take place in real life that wouldn't have happened otherwise. How many such incidents would you accept for allowing the continued existence of the subculture? When do you shut down the subculture down, make it illegal? Where do you draw the line?

These are moral questions that will continue to trouble us as the internet grows in popularity, influence, and importance--and as the larger society, the larger culture, continues to splinter and fragment. The answers will neither be black nor white. But they will be, almost certainly, troubling by the moral standards that exist today.

[...]

Aren't mmo's an outlet for current child predators?

[Mist]

Originally Posted by torrent495

How many such incidents would you accept for allowing the continued existence of the subculture?

Ultimately? Quite a few. That's how we treat violent video games, or any other kind of art that promotes illegal activity. Maybe as much as 1 in 10 kids that shot up their school was inspired to do it by music or video games, and then they go out and take out 5, 10, 15 kids or more one morning. How many kids were inspired to do drugs by some lyrics in some song, got hooked on crack and shot up a liquor store to feed their addiction? You don't know, but certainly a LOT more of these negative connections happen every day than consenting adults playing teacher/principle suddenly start going out raping children, and yet we still keep such art protected.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Drajakur

Word. It makes me sick how people (*cough* Mist *cough*) try and finagle around the issue by making it a question of law when law is totally irrelevant. The point is morality. And it is immoral, and wrong in that sense, to pretend to have sex with a fucking kid if you are doing it in cyberspace, real-space, your own space, or another consenting adult's.

Maybe there is nothing illegal going on here, maybe not. But who gives a shit. What counts is that these people are scum and should be treated as such.

Blizzard is totally within their rights to permit and not permit actions they deem as unsavory within the confines of their game, and I hope they do something about it.

I believe that Mist's original point was that it would be a BAD IDEA to set a legal precedent based on this case because of the implications to the industry as a whole. As soon as "legal" indecency of any type in video games is shown to be subject to action from the courts and the interpretation of some 75 year old bible-thumping judge, all of the crazies like Thompson and Hilary will go on a crusade to eliminate violence and whatever else they don't like in video games.

Or rather, their crusade will suddenly start seeing results.

Leaving what should be legal matters open to "moral" interpretation is never a good idea, especially with all of the fundamentalist whackjobs that are in positions of high power in this country's legal system.

[Vatoreus]

Originally Posted by torrent495

O/T, it's interesting how you connect religion and morality like that.

The question is whether MMOs--these virtual worlds--should have moral standards in terms of what kind of behavior is allowed or tolerated. It's also a question that applies to the larger internet, including fohguild.org. What happens if someone starts an "ageplay" thread on FOH screenshots? Does the thread get deleted? The line between what is acceptable and unacceptable, and between what is virtual and what is real, is often a blurry one.

Some have made the argument in this thread that there is no connection between acting out sick fantasies online and the incidence of such sick acts occurring in real life. But to make that argument is, ultimately, to argue that culture and environment has no effect on human behavior. The communication technologies of the world wide web have enabled the creation of a number of subcultures that simply would not exist otherwise, or if they did exist would not be a thousandth of the size. People can engage in activities and shared interests for which they have no outlet in real life. This is a good thing in most cases, but it can also be a very bad thing. Pedophiles find and engage in explicit "ageplay" with other pedophiles. Yes, it's virtual, it's not real, and most of it will remain that way. But in a community of a hundred thousand people, all it takes is one person to be emboldened and encouraged by virtual "ageplay" for a terrible crime to take place in real life that wouldn't have happened otherwise. How many such incidents would you accept for allowing the continued existence of the subculture? When do you shut down the subculture down, make it illegal? Where do you draw the line?

These are moral questions that will continue to trouble us as the internet grows in popularity, influence, and importance--and as the larger society, the larger culture, continues to splinter and fragment. The answers will neither be black nor white. But they will be, almost certainly, troubling by the moral standards that exist today.

The problem is this. Acceptability and Legality are 2 seperate entities. If Requiem or any other FOH board admin deems something unfit for their community, they have the ability to ban it. That doesn't mean that a person should be able to be charged for a crime because of it. The laws are clear and defined for a reason.

Should Blizzard be allowed to ban them? Yes
Should authorities be allowed to arrest/prosecute them? No

It's as simple as that.

[Cybsled]

That includes infiltrating games that boast 9 million accounts, because someone will be endoctrinated where they were not before and that builds numbers. And numbers ultimately, vote.

"It's all part of the insidious communist plot to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids!"

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

What laws are they violating? Point to the law books where it says it's illegal, because as many have said here, it isn't.

That depends on what they are doing. The most recent law, to my knowledge, is duped the Miller Test.

Basically, it says that "obscene material is not protected by the First Amendment".

What does that mean? What constitutes obscene?

"The government can outlaw material based on the following standard: 'whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value'."

Then there is a series of criteria that must be met before state regulations and penalties may be imposed.

Basically that criteria says that obscenity is that which is "utterly without redeeming social importance."

Once you meet that criteria, states are allowed to impose their sovereign laws and the state of California has one of the strictest child protection laws out there and I think it's California that claims venue over the NA game if I'm not mistaken.

Bear in mind this is the United States I'm referring to because Italy, New Zealand and I forget all the other countries.. they don't allow any type of child pornography, period.

Where's Oloh when you need him.

EDIT: Of course, I'm talking about the solicitation of said "obscene" material which is what the Miller case is about. The fact that she solicited the guild publically, in a venue where minors are expected, that probably put her under the microscope for soliticting something that could be determined obscene. In which case, state regulations could kick in and California could eat her alive.

[torrent495]

Originally Posted by Mist

Ultimately? Quite a few. That's how we treat violent video games, or any other kind of art that promotes illegal activity. Maybe as much as 1 in 10 kids that shot up their school was inspired to do it by music or video games, and then they go out and take out 5, 10, 15 kids or more one morning. How many kids were inspired to do drugs by some lyrics in some song, got hooked on crack and shot up a liquor store to feed their addiction? You don't know, but certainly a LOT more of these negative connections happen every day than consenting adults playing teacher/principle suddenly start going out raping children, and yet we still keep such art protected.

I agree with you, and I'm pretty libertarian on social issues. I do think the R-rating and M-rating on movies and games are defensible legal limitations (of course they were never terribly effective, and rendered even more useless by illegal online pirating).

It's interesting to see how other societies and cultures' standards for allowable art and censorship differs from ours. At one extreme you have the 90's Taliban which outright banned pornography, pop music, video games, dancing, movies, etc. There's Western Europe, which has significantly more stringent standards for violence but regards sex as much less troubling. The U.S. is generally much more stoked in violence, but sex is more taboo. Child pornography is the worst thing imaginable, but people barely even bat an eye at the most extraordinarily violent movies or video games.

And on the internet, of course, there are no standards whatsoever, moral or otherwise. That's what's so enjoyable about it, and to me at least also somewhat scary.

[Requiem]

PS - in addition to my post above;

That being said, if those people were trying to do that shit on fohguild.org, or say in a channel in irc, or if they somehow got on to the Uberguilds Network before I knew what the deal was, I'd drop the hammer.

I can see why Blizzard is worried though - these people are obviously attention whores and could very well be the "activist" type judging from the content of that screenshot. I'd say that if Blizzard outright banned them there is a decent chance that there will be legal issues and you can bet that these people would try to get as much public exposure as possible, and would likely be very successful in that endeavor. At that point it's a lose/lose scenario for Blizzard. The best case scenario is actually that the e-pervs win and get their accounts back because the eventual implications of a win by Blizzard - or worse the FBI or legal system, could be so far-reaching that their game could no longer be legal or would require an M rating, or require certain protective monitoring of underage players or something. Who fucking knows what could happen if direct legal precedent was established about the "content" in games.

[AndersJ]

Originally Posted by Requiem

PS - in addition to my post above;

That being said, if those people were trying to do that shit on fohguild.org, or say in a channel in irc, or if they somehow got on to the Uberguilds Network before I knew what the deal was, I'd drop the hammer.

I can see why Blizzard is worried though - these people are obviously attention whores and could very well be the "activist" type judging from the content of that screenshot. I'd say that if Blizzard outright banned them there is a decent chance that there will be legal issues and you can bet that these people would try to get as much public exposure as possible, and would likely be very successful in that endeavor. At that point it's a lose/lose scenario for Blizzard. The best case scenario is actually that the e-pervs win and get their accounts back because the eventual implications of a win by Blizzard - or worse the FBI or legal system, could be so far-reaching that their game could no longer be legal or would require an M rating, or require certain protective monitoring of underage players or something. Who fucking knows what could happen if direct legal precedent was established about the "content" in games.

Eh, I don't see how they'd have a leg to stand on if Blizzard banned them. In the Terms of Service such content is a bannable offense.

[torrent495]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

The problem is this. Acceptability and Legality are 2 seperate entities. If Requiem or any other FOH board admin deems something unfit for their community, they have the ability to ban it. That doesn't mean that a person should be able to be charged for a crime because of it. The laws are clear and defined for a reason.

Should Blizzard be allowed to ban them? Yes
Should authorities be allowed to arrest/prosecute them? No

It's as simple as that.

Of course I agree with you, but, equally obviously, it's not as simple as that. The law is a codification of a society or a community's collective moral values. Here in the U.S., we have the Constitution and the First Amendment, and a strong tradition in the values of free expression and liberty that underlies that. There's also a strong puritanical tradition, which has held sway at various times in our history, and the law in practice has always been a struggle between those two traditions.

For the specific example of fohguild.org, no one's questioning Requiem's right to do anything he damn wants with the site. But perhaps it's worth pondering, from your personal standpoint, what kind of things you would or would not find acceptable for a forum like FOH screenshots. Actually, I don't know myself, since I don't spend my time over there. But fairly sick threads have popped up now and again. Would an "ageplay" thread cross the line? A "cybersex" thread in general? What do you think?

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Requiem

PS - in addition to my post above;

That being said, if those people were trying to do that shit on fohguild.org, or say in a channel in irc, or if they somehow got on to the Uberguilds Network before I knew what the deal was, I'd drop the hammer.

I can see why Blizzard is worried though - these people are obviously attention whores and could very well be the "activist" type judging from the content of that screenshot.

They are absolutely activists in my mind. There was a thread a few months back where the same type of group was trying to get the word transsexual taken off the ingame bad-word filter.

They went so far as to discuss that children should be allowed to hear their views and experiences with sex-change operations because it was a "fact of life".

They further brought their case to the ACLU and posted the links to the threats made by that organization in an effort to get a rise out of Blizzard.

Turns out, when they were investigated, Warcraft Realms showed that the loudest mouth of the bunch hadn't even logged into the game in SIX months. The rest of them weren't far behind him either.

Yup, using a game like WoW to make your political agendas known.