MMOs as an outlet for [future] child predators?

[Soygen]

Twobit has eclipsed his late join date with his post count. Therefore it's tradition to make fun of him for posting too much and not for joining so late. Fucking amateurs around here...

[Duppin]

Originally Posted by Kaylena

LOL I'M A PARALEGAL STUPID 06ER

Did I pretty much sum up what I missed?

You might want to actually read what the Miller Test that you keep referring to is actually about. It is strictly a test of whether the First Amendment applies to a particular set of speech, and thus whether it can be regulated or not.

This particular speech is pretty clearly obscene, so whether it passes the Miller Test isn't even in question. What is in question, at least among us non-paralegals (I'm trying to see if I can mention that more times than you did, it'll take some doing) is whether this qualifies as pedophilia, which it's pretty clear that it isn't because there are NO ACTUAL CHILDREN INVOLVED.

As people who have read Vanguard threads can tell you, it takes a LOT to get me to agree with Twobit about anything, but you're dead wrong on this, and it's clear that while you accuse him of having an agenda (helpful hint: if Camerous is backing you up you might want to re-evaluate your position) with the clear implication that he's a closet pedo himself, it's pretty clear to me that YOU have an agenda of some sort yourself and are very emotionally attached to this issue.

Which is fine, I'm pretty queasy about this shit myself, but the fact still remains that until there's evidence of actual children being solicited here, there isn't anything illegal happening that has a chance of being prosecuted for.

[Vatoreus]

Originally Posted by Duppin

Did I pretty much sum up what I missed?

You might want to actually read what the Miller Test that you keep referring to is actually about. It is strictly a test of whether the First Amendment applies to a particular set of speech, and thus whether it can be regulated or not.

This particular speech is pretty clearly obscene, so whether it passes the Miller Test isn't even in question. What is in question, at least among us non-paralegals (I'm trying to see if I can mention that more times than you did, it'll take some doing) is whether this qualifies as pedophilia, which it's pretty clear that it isn't because there are NO ACTUAL CHILDREN INVOLVED.

As people who have read Vanguard threads can tell you, it takes a LOT to get me to agree with Twobit about anything, but you're dead wrong on this, and it's clear that while you accuse him of having an agenda (helpful hint: if Camerous is backing you up you might want to re-evaluate your position) with the clear implication that he's a closet pedo himself, it's pretty clear to me that YOU have an agenda of some sort yourself and are very emotionally attached to this issue.

Which is fine, I'm pretty queasy about this shit myself, but the fact still remains that until there's evidence of actual children being solicited here, there isn't anything illegal happening that has a chance of being prosecuted for.

Let's see if we can find the most important part of Duppin's post class.

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Duppin

Did I pretty much sum up what I missed?

You might want to actually read what the Miller Test that you keep referring to is actually about. It is strictly a test of whether the First Amendment applies to a particular set of speech, and thus whether it can be regulated or not.

This particular speech is pretty clearly obscene, so whether it passes the Miller Test isn't even in question. What is in question, at least among us non-paralegals (I'm trying to see if I can mention that more times than you did, it'll take some doing) is whether this qualifies as pedophilia, which it's pretty clear that it isn't because there are NO ACTUAL CHILDREN INVOLVED.

As people who have read Vanguard threads can tell you, it takes a LOT to get me to agree with Twobit about anything, but you're dead wrong on this, and it's clear that while you accuse him of having an agenda (helpful hint: if Camerous is backing you up you might want to re-evaluate your position) with the clear implication that he's a closet pedo himself, it's pretty clear to me that YOU have an agenda of some sort yourself and are very emotionally attached to this issue.

Which is fine, I'm pretty queasy about this shit myself, but the fact still remains that until there's evidence of actual children being solicited here, there isn't anything illegal happening that has a chance of being prosecuted for.

It's really simple, Duppin. People can't throw out their First Amendments rights, nor say that the Federal level supercedes the State level if they know nothing about how the USSC tests obscenity. Once established that obscenity exists, State laws are enforceable. But you start with the Miller Test and you work your way down the ladder from there. So what exactly am I "wrong" about now? I quote facts you even agree with and then turn around and arbitrarily say I'm "wrong on this". Amazing!

As for the agenda, I'm not the one who posted this concern to FoH. In fact, I never even read a thread at WoW or knew about it until I read it here first. But I did go read it over there to see what was up. So did you from the looks of it. As others pointed out, it is true that threads were deleted alleging minors were in fact involved. I read it myself. You must have missed it. Obviously others read the same, but for that, it's now labelled an "agenda".

Maybe if Twobit didn't constantly poke at everything I wrote, I wouldn't have responded to clarify and ultimately conclude he's the one who has the agenda. Ever think of that? Of course not.

I never said the FBI was going to come crashing WoW's party tomorrow. I said, repeatedly, (because he's so dense), that if these perverts get caught with a bonafide minor, they're going to jail. The fact that this interest group even has the audacity to pubically recruit in front of children what they are doing, is questionable considering the ESRB label. Partly because even recruiting the practice of obscene sexuality in front of minors would not pass the Miller Test and what is "obscene" is the first thing that's tested. I also noted it's partly because it wouldn't pass even Blizzard's own EULA. AT has done that already at LEAST on the forums and I read it. So all that screaming on the WoW forums (and here) that they have First Amendment rights is bullcocky. It's also bull when Lilith screams she's not meeting minors in real life so she can do "whatever she wants". Not according to the EULA and not according to the law if she happens to pick the wrong "ERP'er".

I even gave you examples of cases where it's been shown this does happen in WoW, even with people who are prior sex offenders. Yet some scream nothing has happened with minors. In really BIG BOLD letters, so it must be true. Wrong. It has been done. I didn't write those news articles.

My posts are researched and I try to give examples in every fact I state. If it's my opinion, I say it's my opinion. I just don't throw out insults smothered in inane bullshit just to make myself sound intelligent in an effort to smack around the people I don't like who post on this board because they have an opinion I don't share. I also don't harbor hatred for past subjects I didn't share their opinion with just because I didn't get over it like some people around here. And lastly, I don't post just for the sake of hearing myself think.

I said the word "paralegal" once in this thread. Maybe twice the entire time I've ever posted. So much for your count of things. Yet you say nothing about how he accused me about having a personal "crusade" FIRST, which prompted the explanation of why I even thought the subject matter was of interest to me.

Does that sum up everything I said? Yeah, I think it does. Not what you wrote though.

[Camerous]

Give it up Kaylena. I have discovered on here that as a person's post count goes up their intelligence and comprehension abilities go down exponentially. Arguing fact and law is not tolerated here. You must be stupid, ignorant, and above all else have little to no true understanding of the subject you are posting on in order to be a "cool" cat here. I have begun to not even bother trying to actually debate with these morons any more for these reasons. Just not worth it really. Let them remain ignorant. *shrugs*

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Kaylena

Maybe if Twobit didn't constantly poke at everything I wrote, I wouldn't have responded to clarify and ultimately conclude he's the one who has the agenda. Ever think of that? Of course not.

Maybe if you didn't link irrelevant cases involving actual convicted sex offenders and actual children then I wouldn't have responded to poke you and ultimately conclude you are an idiot. Ever think of that? Of course not.

[Duppin]

Originally Posted by Kaylena

USSC

Do you mean SCOTUS?

I kid, I kid.

In any case, a few points (and I'll point out that I'm not a lawyer OR paralegal, and I was mostly just fucking with you when I said that):

-There just isn't anything here that appears to be prosecutable until there's some evidence that someone's made sexual contact with an actual child. It's been said repeatedly in this thread but bears repeating; I'd need a lot better evidence than some people saying that some threads with allegations of actual sexual contact with minors MIGHT have been deleted from the Blizzard boards before I would be convinced otherwise.

-The Miller Test isn't even "bench law", in that it de facto creates something prosecutable in and of itself; it's a legal test to see whether OTHER law can be applied. You can't be sent to jail for violating the Miller Test, and I'm not sure an only very tangentially applicable Georgia blue law changes that, particularly not in an interstate commerce situation like an MMORPG.

-ESRB ratings aren't legally binding; game companies participate in the system so that they can sell their games at Wal-Mart or wherever but the rating system itself has no legal standing. So again, no one is going to jail for introducing content into a game that would change its ESRB rating.

Could these individuals, or Blizzard, get sued for this sort of speech? Probably, because as a paralegal (tee hee, don't flip out!) you would know that the bar (get it?) is much lower for civil liability than for criminal charges.

I get why people get so emotional over this; it's a very unpleasant subject to think about, that there are people that have these sorts of urges. I'm right there with you that it's distasteful, and I agree that it's not something that should be happening within the context of an online game.

(although I do also agree with others that have said it's a slippery slope; to give an example that I'm sure I'll be called all sorts of names for, I think it's entirely appropriate for a gay-centric guild to be able to recruit like minded individuals so that they won't have to see "fag" used as an epithet every other line in guildchat; and for a lot of people in the flyover states, gay still equals pedophile)

But being icky and being something that you can put someone in jail for are two entirely different things.

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Duppin

-There just isn't anything here that appears to be prosecutable until there's some evidence that someone's made sexual contact with an actual child.

Alright, fair enough.

Let's follow this thread then, because this girl is saying she's 13, was in the guild Abhorrent Taboo, has/had friends also in the guild underage. The previous rumor of it seems to be resurfacing, only this one hasn't been deleted yet.

WoW Forums -> Lol keirya

Like the guy in that threads comments, "Color me, unsurprised."

[Twobit Whore]

Yeah that person was caught in a lie involving her brother? or something posing as her fiance or something and admitted in that very thread. Color me unconvinced.

[TKarrde]

I'm just stepping in to say I find the legal threats funny. OH MY GOD BLIZZARD DID NOT MAKE SURE MY CHILD DID NOT GET INVOLVED WITH SOMETHING BAD(TM) I SHOULD SUE THEM FOR NOT DOING MY JOB FOR ME DESPITE THE WARNINGS PLASTERED EVERYWHERE ABOUT HOW THE RATING MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY AND THAT BLIZZARD CANNOT MONITOR ALL COMMUNICATIONS etc etc.

[Etoille]

ok I have to jump in here:

Miller is NOT a good test here. Its shite law. When you go to law school you find out that there is no real obscenity standard. The court decides that shit on a case by case basis. Theres no workable identifiable definition of obscenity. I took like 3 semesters of JUST constitutional law. Obscenity is like the religion clause of the first amendment; its too messed up/not followed to find clear precedent.

Secondly, the ESRB, sadly, looks to its label of "game play may change when online" as a warning to parents that innappropriate things may go one. Ratings are based on things developed by the devs only.

This doesnt change the fact that I believe that the members of the realm when they stated minors were being targeted for membership which would then involve minors. Nor does it change the fact that I think this group is trying to target minors by involving itself in conduct that would otherwise have an age requirement process if it were hosted on any other chat site. Theyre using a product, marketed to children, as an adult sex chat forum. Its inappropriate, Blizzard has the power to stop them, and should.

Last thoughts.

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Etoille

Theyre using a product, marketed to children, as an adult sex chat forum. Its inappropriate, Blizzard has the power to stop them, and should.

Last thoughts.

Just to wrap it up, in case you didn't know, this was posted yesterday by a blue named Verrith:

Hello all,

This topic is no longer a suitable one for conversational purposes. We understand that there is immense interest in this subject due to the changes that it may cause on your server. However, this matter is not one Blizzard takes lightly in any way, shape or form, and we do not wish to have this topic continue circulation.

Those who were part of the offending guild should not post information sent to you on this forum or any other, as it is prohibited by our forum rules to discuss such matters.

Let it finally be said that we appreciate those of you who brought this particular issue to our attention and that we will continue to follow up with this matter in the future to ensure the safety of all parties concerned.

Thank you all very much for your time.

WoW Forums -> Abhorrent Tattoo Gets Disbanded!

Apparently some warnings (maybe bans too, they're not saying) went out yesterday. According to some of the posters it was long in coming. This had been going on close to a year.

I guess, better late then never.

[Etoille]

Blizzard disbands extreme erotic roleplaying guild - WOW Insider

unfortunately its never over. guild's already reformed under a different name.

"However, the members have reformed as Vile Anathema."

WoW Forums -> Abhorrent Taboo reformed as Vile Anathema.

I give it about 6 months before they start up again.