SOE to own VG - Sigil fires employees

[tad10]

Originally Posted by woqqqa

Well if we're going to assume that we're mostly being lied to and strung along by the majority of people/companies hoping to sell us something (a fairly reasonable assumption, actually), then what's the point of being civil to them at all? The information that they release on these forums (or any website) is hardly worth having to put up with all the spin, in my opinion. I mean, who the hell cares if -insert random developer here- is posting on the site, if their information is suspect? That's why honest developers such as Gallenite are so valued by the community.

And as for the moving on bit...you seem to be almost dismissive of the contemptuous attitude shown by Brad & Co towards their prospective customers. (if I'm misinterpreting you here, feel free to correct me) I'd say that while dwelling on it is a bad idea, "just moving on" is a bad idea. Why? Because without a lot of nasty customer reactions, companies and the individuals that run them basically see screwing the consumer as the status quo, furthering a rather nasty meme in modern corporate culture.

And since I'd rather deal with companies that value the customer to some degree, I'd say that bashing companies that treat their customers badly sends a message to the others that this isn't likely to make them money, discouraging this sort of behavior.

Well. A lot here.

1. Not dismissive of Brad. I think he feels like shit about the whole thing and will continue to feel like shit for a while to come. I don't think there is anything you or Neric or anyone else could say that would make him feel worse than he does now after losing his game, his company, his reputation in the industry and (I suspect) some of his friends.

2. I like to think we are a minority of the consumer base. The loud nasty minority that is a PITA to the various MMO companies. The vast majority of WoW's 8 million players don't bitch about the game, ditto for the vast majority of consumers of any product. Why do you buy toothpaste? Because of commercials proclaiming your teeth will be whiter and using models that have veneers? Do you bitch to Colgate that your teeth aren't getting as white as the veneers? Probably not, and probably not for 90% of the things you purchase. You bring up EQ2's producer but there are former SOE customers that will never buy another SOE game even EQ2 (see SV will you stay thread -- a couple of SOE owns it now I'm unsubbing) for various reasons you're well aware so I'm not going to rehash.

I think their attitude is idiotic -- so the companies fucked up in the past. That doesn't mean I wouldn't give a new title a try. Similarly with VG its been fucked over and there is a cloud over Tagad & co's head -- I'll still give em a chance to see what they can do with VG. It may turn into the ultimate uber-grind in which case I'll likely end up unsubbing and playing PotC (I jest! LOTRO or AoC beta if I get inito it) on the other hand they may turn it around.

I guess I figure I have a brain and you have a brain and ultimately I'm going to make my own decision about a game regardless of what the company or some forum post says. Would I like total honesty -- sure. Will I ever see it? Nope. I can't think of any MMO I've played that hasn't had broken dev promises to a lesser or greater extent WoW, EQ, FFXI, VG, SWG (actually almost in that order).

3. Finally re: bashing is its just so much preaching to the choir. We all know the score by now. Nothing is getting added or subtracted from that score by repeated bashing.

Edit: and on a more personal note -- I gave up raging about being incredibly dispointed with things like this with the Star Wars prequels.

[l0z]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

PS: This is also why the buddy system of hiring does not work either. Most of the people hired had absolutely zero experience in this field without any theories on game design anyway. Most of the people that were hired were hired because they were controllable. The ones that weren't, left on their own or were fired.

Nevermind what I wrote - it's unimportant. But if you look around, you'll see another company trending this same way.

[Lost Ranger]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

As far as I am concerned, Jeff Butler and Brad McQuaid have buried their credibility with this title, and I would honestly doubt if they ever got a shake again after this.

At least I hope to God they don't.

Already been pointed out that Jeff is moving on to a new title but I think you're prob right about Brad. Everywhere I look he is getting hammered and I dont see this ever being forgotten heh. People were discussing it in EQ2, and WoW today... seems every gaming forum I visit has at least one thread and there is no shortage of Brad mockery.

He deserves it all too sadly. I tried to give the man some credit before the game was public but he screwed himself with being so vocal. Soooo many threads with soooo many lies. He should of just kept quiet and watched VG fail, collect his cash and call it a day. One can only hope that Brad McQuaid is finished.

Edit: Id kill for a screenshot of his FoH mail box right now heh. I can only imagine the hate mail he must have here.

[rinthea]

I had a part in firing a guy a week or so ago. This guy was completely inept. I wasnt even the guy whose job it was to break the news and was fully behind axing him. However it was still hard.

Imagine how hard it would be if it was out of your control and now you had fire to 50 capable people because you fucked up. It would also be the pinnacle of the timeline of failure. That very moment would be the peak of all your work, dreams and aspirations flatlined. It would not be easy.

I know for a fact Brad would be taking this very hard. I remember during around Dec beta, when things were looking down and he was getting ragged on here, he made a post on the vanguard forums that clearly showed he was taking it pretty hard and starting to lose the plot.

It would not surprise me if the last few months have been very hard on him and hes been quite depressed. Going to mass firing and having a few words would have been good for him and everyone there. But its too late now, might as well move on.

[Jedite]

I have been sitting reading this melodrama for the past few days, and not really sure if I wanted to post about this or not, since I personally dont feel any rage towards Brad, or for that matter anyone at Sigil or SOE.

What has happend is sad anyway you look at it, but its part of the Game industry as a whole. You never have a sure thing, i mean look at the PS3, in ways it is very parallel with what happend to Vanguard, they were pushing the envelope in technology and making some very unpopular decisions as far as marketing, ect, and look were it is now, PS2 was #1 PS3 is lagging behind both Wii and 360 and Ken "Playstation" Kutaragi is out of the job.


Now on the topic of Brad, I am wondering if he was forced out back when SOE bought the then called Distribution rights to vanguard and became just a Mouthpiece for the game, or what exactly happend. If the reports of him not being around the office for 8+ months are true, then there must be something that happend. I mean this was his baby, and I just cant stomach the idea that he withdrew from it willingly for 8months. Then again who knows, and I dont think we will ever know.


Now as far as were Vanguard goes from here. Well I still believe the game has a lot of potential, the enviroments are simply amazing and they were getting alot of things right with the classes. However I am very concerend with how much SOE and Smed are willing to let Vanguard grow and or expand. Lets face it Vanguard is not a home grown SOE product and I fear that it will go down the same route that MO and SWG have taken, aka no updates no nothing.


IMO the fault lies as much with Microsoft as it does with Sigil. I just cant understand how Microsoft gave out 30million and never had a hand as far as Management. Also wtf is up with having more designers than coders? Most designers IMO should be coders first then become designers(just so they know what they can do and develop better comm with the coders).

I am not gona fault Brad and Company for thinking BIG and looking to push the tech boundaries, but Timing, planning and management of both was just in the shitter. The budget of this game should have been enough to keep it in Development up until august at the very least, instead of 3 designers for every coder it should have been the other way around. ect ect ect not gona divulge more in that area.


Finally, I still question why in the FUCKING world SOE and Sigil allowed this game to release only 2 weeks after TBC released, that was just the dumbest move I have seen either company make. So what if you spend an extra say 100k in dev for 1 or 2 months, you get a lot more polish in the game and you are not competing with the most popular game in the market. Just imagine if the game had released in early april instead of January. We would probably would not be having this conversation since the lvl of polish in the game around April in the 1-30 range was pretty damn good.


But enough of the could and would have. I just hope that SOE doesnt toss this game into the garbage like MO and SWG.

[woqqqa]

Originally Posted by tad10

Well. A lot here.

1. Not dismissive of Brad. I think he feels like shit about the whole thing and will continue to feel like shit for a while to come. I don't think there is anything you or Neric or anyone else could say that would make him feel worse than he does now after losing his game, his company, his reputation in the industry and (I suspect) some of his friends.

2. I like to think we are a minority of the consumer base. The loud nasty minority that is a PITA to the various MMO companies. The vast majority of WoW's 8 million players don't bitch about the game, ditto for the vast majority of consumers of any product. Why do you buy toothpaste? Because of commercials proclaiming your teeth will be whiter and using models that have veneers? Do you bitch to Colgate that your teeth aren't getting as white as the veneers? Probably not, and probably not for 90% of the things you purchase. You bring up EQ2's producer but there are former SOE customers that will never buy another SOE game even EQ2 (see SV will you stay thread -- a couple of SOE owns it now I'm unsubbing) for various reasons you're well aware so I'm not going to rehash.

I think their attitude is idiotic -- so the companies fucked up in the past. That doesn't mean I wouldn't give a new title a try. Similarly with VG its been fucked over and there is a cloud over Tagad & co's head -- I'll still give em a chance to see what they can do with VG. It may turn into the ultimate uber-grind in which case I'll likely end up unsubbing and playing PotC (I jest! LOTRO or AoC beta if I get inito it) on the other hand they may turn it around.

I guess I figure I have a brain and you have a brain and ultimately I'm going to make my own decision about a game regardless of what the company or some forum post says. Would I like total honesty -- sure. Will I ever see it? Nope. I can't think of any MMO I've played that hasn't had broken dev promises to a lesser or greater extent WoW, EQ, FFXI, VG, SWG (actually almost in that order).


3. Finally re: bashing is its just so much preaching to the choir. We all know the score by now. Nothing is getting added or subtracted from that score by repeated bashing.

1 - Fair enough. Perhaps he'll learn a lesson about quality control and dealing with customers, as will anyone else in the industry taking note of Vanguard's development and release, I hope.

2 - We on these forums certainly are a minority, but just because we're the ones actually voicing our discontent doesn't mean that the community at large doesn't have the same problems. The majority of people I know who used to play WoW left earlier this year due to issues with the LFG tool (apparently the player made LFG channels on their servers weren't popular, for whatever reason). I had quite a few friends try Vanguard...all have quit, mostly due to bugs. (CTDs being the main culprit for most, along with falling through the world, which I understand has mostly been dealt with by now)

As for the toothpaste comparison...a game doesn't have to be perfect. God knows they'd all fail if that was the standard they were held up to. But there's a difference between a toothpaste that pretty much does what it advertises and whitens your teeth, if not as well as a dentist might, and one that claims to do the same but only works half the time, while also irritating your gums and occasionally turning your teeth gray. No one expects a perfect product, but to hype something up as a world beater only to have it turn out horribly is another thing altogether. In other words, it's the huge disparity between what was sold to us and what was delivered, plus the amazing enthusiasm with which Brad seems to have lied to us that has people foaming at the mouth.

I'm of the opinion that the way in which a company treats its customers, deals with problems, etc. matters. It's often an indicator of service or product reliability. If a company that I'd been burned by before released a new product, I wouldn't think of looking at it unless the company had given me reason to think that their poor behavior had changed in the meantime. (which is why for some people, SOE's making up for the NGE with what it's doing with EQ2...not all though, but oh well, you can't win 'em all over)

Last but not least, you're quite right about the state of MMO developer promises in general, which is one of the reasons I've stopped playing MMOs at the moment. (Besides EVE, I don't find any of them interesting enough, and EVE tends to be a bit too time-consuming for my taste, although unique and fairly well-made.) The fact is that most of these guys deliver the same crap in a shiny new package, and I don't see anything worth my time...although I do like the look of Pirates of the Burning Sea, I may give it a try when it's released.

3 - Actually, I think bashing serves an important purpose:

Venting. People don't like being taken in and are now bitching on this forum. It's a quick and easy way to blow off steam. Remember, the f13 article and several other tidbits just now became public. If people are still bitching in a few weeks, I'd be worried.

As is, it's the natural reaction of some people that were somewhat too emotionally invested in the game, likely due to some feeling of nostalgia. Also, perhaps they're hoping that some developers (those responsible for the debacle) are reading this and that their scorn will register.

[Twobit Whore]

100k in dev for 1-2 months? Try 1-2 million or so.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by woqqqa

Last but not least, you're quite right about the state of MMO developer promises in general, which is one of the reasons I've stopped playing MMOs at the moment. .

There does some to be a dearth of MMO alternatives right now probably explains some of the willingness to look at EQ2.

[Jedite]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

100k in dev for 1-2 months? Try 1-2 million or so.

How do you figure? Alot of the 30million over 4 years went into the buying of equipment, software(unreal engine twice) ect which takes a big chunk out of that. Anyhow, maybe i was under estimating but it should be more than 700k for 2 months of dev in the final stretch.

[rinthea]

Originally Posted by Jedite

How do you figure? Alot of the 30million over 4 years went into the buying of equipment, software(unreal engine twice) ect which takes a big chunk out of that. Anyhow, maybe i was under estimating but it should be more than 700k for 2 months of dev in the final stretch.

100 employees x 5k per month just for salaries

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by rinthea

100 employees x 5k

Plus all the people in beta using up bandwidth that isnt being paid for. Costs increase drastically the closer you get to release.

[Filthgrinder]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

100k in dev for 1-2 months? Try 1-2 million or so.

on the nose

[Istros]

Originally Posted by rinthea

100 employees x 5k per month just for salaries

I'm sure pretty soon American companies will begin developing games in India or China...

[rinthea]

Originally Posted by Istros

I'm sure pretty soon American companies will begin developing games in India or China...

Skilled wages in India & China are catching up to the US. In some places surpassing them fwiw

[Filthgrinder]

Originally Posted by Istros

I'm sure pretty soon American companies will begin developing games in India or China...

Dude, where you been? we've been doing this for the last 6-8 years now, all over the industry. Tons and Tons of work is sent of to India, Vietnam, Russia, China, Singapore, and Estonia.