SOE to own VG - Sigil fires employees

[Mithrull]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

He is the one responsible for class design and balance, yes. How's that working out for ya?

For who?

[Drtyrm]

It always appeared to me that Nino was scrambling around the office, trying to fix things or get an issue addressed because he was an mmo player, and understood the frustration that the playerbase endured with buggy content. Sort of a guy with a thimbleful of water while Rome burned.

[Believe]

Originally Posted by Flight

EQ2 was never in anything like as bad a state as Vanguard was and is, particularly widespread duping and XP hacks.

Definitely wasn't as in good of shape as it is now, and if it wasn't for the early players feeding them cash the game probably wouldn't be in the shape it is now.

[Flight]

Originally Posted by Believe

Definitely wasn't as in good of shape as it is now, and if it wasn't for the early players feeding them cash the game probably wouldn't be in the shape it is now.

I agree with you bud; like most folk here, I played at release.

The thing with EQ2 was that it was immediately obvious what needed to change and what needed fixing. Vanguard needs a lot of obvious things fixing, but strategically its a lot harder to list and see everything it needs. A lot will depend on just how bad the state of the code really is.

I've consistently said the biggest problem was lack of QA throughout development. Without that its a fair bet that the foundations of the game, code wise, are out control and poorly documented - thats the biggest challenge facing SoE, quite apart from making the game secure and fun.

[Lizarde]

Originally Posted by Zorlac

That f13.net interview is an eye opener.

Assuming it's legit. The 'source' makes mostly general claims with very few specifics overall. For all we know he was the guy making copies and ordering staples for the staff, or even just someone who knew someone who worked there. Or if he was really a staff member working on the project, we have no way to know how accurate his claims are, and how much is revisionist history or his own slanted or misinformed opinions.

It's a mildly interesting interview, but it's hard to take it even at face value, IMO.

[AngryGerbil]

In response to Duppin a few pages back:

While Ut and company certainly have their flaws as posters (like anyone), I am in no way opposed to them doing and saying what they did when Brad came around these parts. There are plenty of forums where the populace will coddle and asskiss any dev who posts there. I think FOH, while certainly not the be-all-end-all of gaming forums or even the best of them, has its place (niche if you will) for being bloodthirsty and unforgiving. I think that is exactly what makes it valuable in a certain sense. If a dev can step into this house and come out clean on the other side, is that not a litmus test of at least some value?

As others of said, I can almost directly attribute $50 in my bank account that wouldn't otherwise be there if not for the VG NDA breakers on this board and the "*coughbullshitcough*" attitude they took with Aradune's posts.

Think you got a great game that can stand up to some scrutiny? Come peddle it in this place and see where it gets you. Hell, perhaps you'll survive it and be the better for it. Print it on the back of your package if you want:

"Innovative and downright fun" -EGM
"94% - Gamespot"
"Shit, even the horde of raging uber-nerds at FOH like this game!" - Publisher

But don't come here here with a subpar game and expect praise to heaped on you. That's the way this board seems to be in my view and that's the way I personally like it and want it to stay. If that keeps developers away, then so be it. I come here to read no-nonsense brutal reviews of games from the people that love them most (and to bicker about religion and shit in other forums ), not to hear the latest plug from an industry insider. There are plenty of other places for that.

That being said, yes, the maturity level of some posters leaves a bit to be desired. But you have to take the good with the bad and you can't control everything, nor would I want you to.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Lizarde

Assuming it's legit. The 'source' makes mostly general claims with very few specifics overall. For all we know he was the guy making copies and ordering staples for the staff, or even just someone who knew someone who worked there. Or if he was really a staff member working on the project, we have no way to know how accurate his claims are, and how much is revisionist history or his own slanted or misinformed opinions.

It's a mildly interesting interview, but it's hard to take it even at face value, IMO.

Yep, just like the SOE buyout thing was just a rumor and the reports of firing (from that very same source) was just a rumor. None of this stuff has been substantiated at all.

[AngryGerbil]

Originally Posted by Lizarde

It's a mildly interesting interview, but it's hard to take it even at face value, IMO.

Actually, I'd say it's fairly easy to take at face value. But whatever....

[woqqqa]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Yep, just like the SOE buyout thing was just a rumor and the reports of firing (from that very same source) was just a rumor. None of this stuff has been substantiated at all.

Absolutely not! We believe in Brad, and know that flying mounts, better graphics, non-boring gameplay and player towns are all right around the corner, as soon as we get rid of the haters, who've upset Brad and given him a mental block. (he programs the game all on his own, you know...amazing genius that he is)

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Lizarde

Assuming it's legit. The 'source' makes mostly general claims with very few specifics overall. For all we know he was the guy making copies and ordering staples for the staff, or even just someone who knew someone who worked there. Or if he was really a staff member working on the project, we have no way to know how accurate his claims are, and how much is revisionist history or his own slanted or misinformed opinions.

It's a mildly interesting interview, but it's hard to take it even at face value, IMO.

Follow the discussion better (yeah I know its through several months, several forums, multiple interviews and posted and then edited out content but whatever ;p). The f13 interview has multiple sources. Now of course its biased but this we know:

Once Brad fell out of the picture Sigil divided into two camps at Sigil one "led" (I use the term very carelessly for lack of a better) by Nino the other by Tagad as to the direction (or lack thereof) of the game. Tagad's camp had the higher ground and "won" (I use this term even more carelessly).

You are now up to speed.

Edit: Almost forgot. And now Tagad is running VG (under the auspices of SOE sans conflict with Nino's side) and Nino is starting a new project (also under the auspices of SOE sans conflict with Tagad's). Since both sides apparently have very different views of the direction of an MMO it will be very interesting to see the result we get in both VG and in the new project.

[Lizarde]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Yep, just like the SOE buyout thing was just a rumor and the reports of firing (from that very same source) was just a rumor. None of this stuff has been substantiated at all.

I am not speaking to the validity of past rumors or the reliability of the site, I am pointing out that the source for this interview gives responses that are, for the most part, vague and general in nature, and unlikely to be corroborated by anyone who isn't also anonymous. Very few details aside from stuff that has already been made public, one way or another.

[Mkopec1]

x-Sigil: There are a lot of people, Brad included who were certain it would be a short-lived game. Some, in fact, including Brad, never played it. WoW should have been the example of 'look at what a good game can do!' when instead it was often spoken of like a bad thing.

Again, I just find this comment fascinating. I mean how can you design something, if you dont even play? Even in automotive engineering we take apart competitors vehicles all the time to gauge our products and quality VS theirs.

Essentially your designing your game in a bubble, not even knowing what the competition is or what its all about.

Common sense dictates that you take the best of the best, play it and then make judgments on how to attack a new game design. Im also wondering how many employees actually play or played mmorpgs themselves. How can you even have a clue what a player would want out of a game like a mmorpg, where you devote so much time to, if you never played one yourself.

And on the app for my company there would be the question... "Have you ever played a mmorpg before? If so which one and for how long?

Granted not all positions on a game development team need this, but definitely the game designers and the leads.


Even though I know jack shit as a game designer or a manager or wahtever, I know one of the first steps I would do creating a company is making the entire team play different mmorpgs and coming up with their own like and dislike list. Then compiling that data as a start of the features in my new game.
For instance how would you gauge what a grind is?

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Lizarde

I am not speaking to the validity of past rumors or the reliability of the site, I am pointing out that the source for this interview gives responses that are, for the most part, vague and general in nature, and unlikely to be corroborated by anyone who isn't also anonymous. Very few details aside from stuff that has already been made public, one way or another.

Of course it's hard for someone in their position to give specifics, especially ones that could identify themselves as they would likely face reprecussions.

I'm not sure what's so vague about it anyway. Seems pretty damn specific.

[RunningDog]

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

x-Sigil: There are a lot of people, Brad included who were certain it would be a short-lived game. Some, in fact, including Brad, never played it. WoW should have been the example of 'look at what a good game can do!' when instead it was often spoken of like a bad thing.

Again, I just find this comment fascinating. I mean how can you design something, if you dont even play? Even in automotive engineering we take apart competitors vehicles all the time to gauge our products and quality VS theirs.

Essentially your designing your game in a bubble, not even knowing what the competition is or what its all about.

Common sense dictates that you take the best of the best, play it and then make judgments on how to attack a new game design. Im also wondering how many employees actually play or played mmorpgs themselves. How can you even have a clue what a player would want out of a game like a mmorpg, where you devote so much time to, if you never played one yourself.

For instance how would you gauge what a grind is?

Unfortunately I suspect ego had a lot to do with it. If someone refuses to acknowledge that WoW was a major improvement over EQ then they aren't going to waste time playing it, and will see any differences as flaws rather than strengths.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Lizarde

I am not speaking to the validity of past rumors or the reliability of the site, I am pointing out that the source for this interview gives responses that are, for the most part, vague and general in nature, and unlikely to be corroborated by anyone who isn't also anonymous. Very few details aside from stuff that has already been made public, one way or another.

The team split and the perception of at least the f13 side spin of the other has been previously confirmed. Of course Tagad's side has a different spin.

I will absolutely grant you that we on the outside will never know exactly specifically what happened. But the fact that a guy most of us respect has moved on says something.

Now -- and here I am speaking hypo-thetical-ly -- it may be that Tagad & co. will be able to now deliver some direction and that the largest problem with Sigil wasn't that Nino (and again I am using these names as a shorthand to identify the sides -- put in Side A or Side B if you prefer) was right and Tagad wrong (or vice-versa) but that the conflict between the two sides created such a shitty working situation that good ideas were discarded if they came from the wrong side.

I recall working at a firm where two rainmakers in one department hated (not saying that's the case here -- just making another shity analogy) each other -- it was a bitch to work in that department getting anything productive done took twice as long.

Edit: Fuck I need to stop reading this thread and get some work done.