SOE to own VG - Sigil fires employees

[chalon]

Originally Posted by Tirinal

By the way, I'm curious. Is there any technical or design reason to eschew a scripting language? Presumably when the block was enacted they still had an operating budget and the chance to salvage some measure of the game. Why would you enforce manual coding of features?

Not using a scripting language for some things, sure. The technical reason is that typically, C++ code is going to execute 10-20x faster than equivalent script code.

Not having one at all seems like something that would happen only if you have a lead programmer that thinks designers are all incompetant and shouldn't write any code, even script (which oddly enough, some are like that--though most aren't). Either that, or the game as a whole was running too slow that if they added a scripting language it would slow it down too much. But adding in a scripting language really isn't something you can do at the last minute. You have to build your systems from the start with a scripting language in mind.

[Miele]

Originally Posted by Kaylena

I'll say it again. To be fair, Utnayan replied to too many replies to his posts and that's what always got the ball rolling downhill.

But you can't negate the fact that he was often swarmed the minute he posted. He'd make one comment and 15 people who didn't like him had something to say -- mostly people with nothing constructive to say at all except call him names. That would put anyone in a bad mood.

I think he took most of it in stride. Some of his comebacks were the funniest remarks I've ever read.

I agree with Kaylena here. Faith, you're right, no... absolutely right that he went on for too long and too often, but honestly, go read again the threads, it's amazing the number of people who came out to *only* insult him, without even trying to counter his points. I find perfectly human, given his temper that he would address them one by one starting a chain of post-reply-insult-counterinsult.

I was thinking "he's crazy, he can't be right", because I was a naive blind VG lover in 2004, then in beta 3 reality struck me ala "damn, he's right". For sure I didn't come on the board to tell him "fuck you" in the beginning and I didn't come to knee at his altar when it was proven he was right, but let's give credit where credit is due.

Oh and VG threads insued some ilarity here and there, I had some good laughs about the use of the english vocabulary and its "distortions" (English is not my mother language, thus I love to learn the more colloquial and slang-ish way of speaking) and I certainly loved the Itzena's decoder. That really made me laugh a lot.

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Nairbog

The main problem I had with Utnayan/Neric is that it was obvious from their comments that they were not active in the beta, but seemed to argue based on hearsay. There were plenty of times they said things that were true at one point but didn't apply at the present time. It bugged me alot because I wanted to point these inconsistencies out but couldn't due to the NDA. I'm not saying they didn't have valid points, but this is what ired me at the time. As someone who had been testing the game since early beta 2, and believe me the game was 100x more incomplete then, what I saw near the middle of beta 3 gave me hope that they could turn it around given enough time, and I still think they could have.

Well, they were kicked out of the beta as you know. Then people were feeding them information on the side due to the NDA. I suspect some of that information was old and he would post about it anyway.

But by then the battle lines were drawn. You had those who really wanted the game to work on one side and those who swore it wasn't going to happen on the other. The thing was though, those that wanted it work could talk freely without repercussions. Those that saw Brad as a con-artist were afraid to say anything, so they gave it to Ut because he had the nerve to do it.

[Nairbog]

I'm not so sure about those wanting VG to work being able to speak freely. I think most of those people valued their beta spot more than those that thought it was a worthless POS, and so were more wary of breaking the NDA. Even if they weren't banning those speaking positively while breaking the NDA, it was impossible to know that for sure and the fear was there. (atleast for me)

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Nairbog

I'm not so sure about those wanting VG to work being able to speak freely. I think most of those people valued their beta spot more than those that thought it was a worthless POS, and so were more wary of breaking the NDA. Even if they weren't banning those speaking positively while breaking the NDA, it was impossible to know that for sure and the fear was there. (atleast for me)

Don't you remember the pictures? Beta testers were posting favorable pictures of the game to make a point that Utnayan was wrong about whatever point he was talking about. They often started their posts by saying, "I'll probably get banned for this but... " and post the picture and comments anyway. Then around page 10 of the thread, it was questioned why was it that they were allowed to breach the NDA while others were being kicked out for bad press. And then poof! Bye-bye went the thread. And the Requiem or Ravenn (I forget) had to remind everyone not to do that anymore. But they tried. That's how I remember it, anyway.

EDIT: I'm just saying, that before everyone just blames the whole thing on Utnayan or Neric, etc... You have to remember that those that had faith in the game were given more leeway whereas those that didn't have faith in the game, either weren't allowed to talk about it, and if they did, weren't to be trusted anyway because NDA breakers are known liars.

It was a tough thing. You knew people were going to spend thousands of dollars on new equipment just for that game. There was a forum dedicated to just telling people what to buy or how to upgrade. It wasn't just $50. For some testers, they felt those people would never see the game in the way it was being hyped to them to justify the cost. As we see even now, people from Sigil knew it wasn't ready and things were going wrong and they too, couldn't say a word. They would have been fired. I also remember reading a post from Brad saying he was looking at NDA breakers and that his lawyers were handling it.

What does that say about how crazy this industry has become?

[Borzak]

Originally Posted by Nairbog

I'm not so sure about those wanting VG to work being able to speak freely. I think most of those people valued their beta spot more than those that thought it was a worthless POS, and so were more wary of breaking the NDA. Even if they weren't banning those speaking positively while breaking the NDA, it was impossible to know that for sure and the fear was there. (atleast for me)

Hmmm I'm not sure "most" people valued their beta spot...I was in beta. Back when on a good day during prime time there were 75 people logged on. Yes the login screen had the actual number up then. I wonder how many 1,000's of invites went out to get those 75 people to log on regularly?

It wasn't only the game in beta that blew. I wish someone had archived all the post in the beta forums. Brad was flat off his rocker. I remember last summer him coming here and making these long post about the most incredible stuff like ship battles and how that was being tested - when in actuality at the time you couldn't stay connected in the game for more than a few minutes - half the NPC's were still placeholders (in the places that were at least semi fleshed out). It was like Brad was hyping step 10,345 and the game was still on step 4. Literally.

What put me off of the game more than how bad beta was - was again Brad and his insane postings. He would post in the beta forums about his vision and how the game was going to work concerning stuff like the death penalty, in game GPS like maps etc...then come here and write the exact opposite the very same day.

I swear I think he has a multiple personality disorder.

The person in that interview had it dead on when he talks about Brad being an idea person - but he desperately needs someone to keep him in check and at least semi in touch with reality.

Personally I wish SOE would have come out in their press release and say Brad is just flat fired - no longer has any ties to VG, and his postings/opinions don't relect anything to do with the game. Then I hope they would fix it and move on.

That last press release is pretty telling where he says there will be no more talk of stuff like ship battles and other stuff that has no base with reality....I found that one pretty amusing.

This thread here on FoH almost exactly a year ago sums it up pretty well.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorp...blem-fans.html

I'm sorry people got fired, but looking at their post I think they knew it was coming. The serious question is who didn't see this coming? I was shocked when SOE got involved and people said it was because how great the game was going to be...like MS would just sell/give up (likely almost given away) a game that had great potential.

Those of you that say this was all an elobarate scheme by Brad to fail or whatever...I think you give him WAY too much credit. He's not some MMORPG god. He's a man. He did a great game with EQ1...but we can't even really say if EQ1 would still be around if Brad were in charge of it. Personally I think he's an idea guy pure and simple, not some mad genious of gaming.

[Faith]

Originally Posted by Kaylena

But by then the battle lines were drawn. You had those who really wanted the game to work on one side and those who swore it wasn't going to happen on the other. The thing was though, those that wanted it work could talk freely without repercussions. Those that saw Brad as a con-artist were afraid to say anything, so they gave it to Ut because he had the nerve to do it.

Absolutly, there were two fanatical sides battling it out on the forums, and the real information was lost between the flames. It was easy to think "Oh, XXX is just bashing away now because he wants to flame XXX". Easiest way to avoid that is to reply to one typical post with your own thoughs and then let that be that. That one side was gagged by a NDA didnt help either.

That Brad is a con-artist is a bit harsh I think. I dont belive he wanted Vanguard to fail, but ended up in a position where he could either admit defeat and say "look guys, we simply cant get this to work, we need to cut down on features and try to get the game into shape for release" or he could hope for the best and try to spin it to make it look good to the money-guys and pray Sigil could get the game out the door in a somewhat playable shape and retain enough subs to actually get most of the fluff in. If you work on something you love, its bloody hard to take a step back and admit to yourself that this simply wont work and that you fucked up.

Brad gambled and lost, unfortunatly being a visionary dont mean you have the skill to pull such a huge undertaking off. Im sure he is a great pal outside work, but he has shown that he could simply not cope in a management position and that he needs someone to look over his ideas to determine what is actually possible within the framework of the project.

No, Im not excusing Brad for his role in this, but Im also realistic. People around him should have noticed and put up a red flag when it was obvious it went down the shitter. Just read that interview. If that is correct, management was a joke and everyone knew about it. I guess its easier here in Sweden. You cant get fired just because you speak out against the boss. People are not afraid to speak their mind for fear of their own jobs, our laws protect us from that for good or evil.

[Faith]

I just have to point out something funny but sad. Imagine the ONE QA guy.... Imagine him sending in his resume for the next job in the industry...

"I was the QA guy for Vanguard"

"The thing they shipped this spring and that tanked due to being unplayable 4 months later?"

"Yes....."

"Thank you for your time, dont call us, we will call you if we have an opening...."

Poor QA guy....

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Faith

Absolutly, there were two fanatical sides battling it out on the forums, and the real information was lost between the flames. It was easy to think "Oh, XXX is just bashing away now because he wants to flame XXX". Easiest way to avoid that is to reply to one typical post with your own thoughs and then let that be that. That one side was gagged by a NDA didnt help either.

I waited a long time to see someone who didn't lose faith in the game say that, thank you. I didn't have faith in it, but at least we understand each other.

That Brad is a con-artist is a bit harsh I think. I dont belive he wanted Vanguard to fail, but ended up in a position where he could either admit defeat and say "look guys, we simply cant get this to work, we need to cut down on features and try to get the game into shape for release" or he could hope for the best and try to spin it to make it look good to the money-guys and pray Sigil could get the game out the door in a somewhat playable shape and retain enough subs to actually get most of the fluff in. If you work on something you love, its bloody hard to take a step back and admit to yourself that this simply wont work and that you fucked up.

Harsh, yes. But his history didn't help with unfinished expansions in Everquest. Between that fault in history and bad vibes about Vanguard leaking to the forums, people were fearing that history was going to repeat itself.

Brad gambled and lost, unfortunatly being a visionary dont mean you have the skill to pull such a huge undertaking off. Im sure he is a great pal outside work, but he has shown that he could simply not cope in a management position and that he needs someone to look over his ideas to determine what is actually possible within the framework of the project.

I agree.

No, Im not excusing Brad for his role in this, but Im also realistic. People around him should have noticed and put up a red flag when it was obvious it went down the shitter. Just read that interview. If that is correct, management was a joke and everyone knew about it. I guess its easier here in Sweden. You cant get fired just because you speak out against the boss. People are not afraid to speak their mind for fear of their own jobs, our laws protect us from that for good or evil.

In spite of it all, I think something can be said for the gaming community. The ones that are called "nerds" by the publishers. This is the first time an epic MMOG hit the market and was impacted by word of mouth straight away. People took the wait and see attitude. I do however, believe the game would have been a hit if it was solid at launch. Word of mouth would have spread quick enough.

So, I'd rather NOT see gamers fight amongst themselves. You have too much positive impact. Plus, that just gives developers an excuse not to interact with gamers. And I don't believe games get better because developers just read forums. They need to stop treating it like a Charmin commercial, a product that doesn't require public opinion, because they're selling "interactive", not toilet paper.

[Borzak]

Reading another forum reminded me of something from back in Beta 2.5 or so.

About the time some info was leaking and people were posting about the beta boards being crap - beta testers were given a survey as to why they didn't play.

No one knew how to answer. It was like one of those surveys you could answer either way because it was so poorly worded. On the forums everyone asked them to redo it since people answered it differently even tho they had the same answer (it was on a scale of 1 to 10). I don't remember if they ever did.

I remember posting that maybe they intentionally rigged the survey and were going to show MS the results so that it showed them in a good light. I have no idea what they did with it but it was a really crazy survery I wish I would have saved it.

[Faille]

Originally Posted by Faith

I just have to point out something funny but sad. Imagine the ONE QA guy.... Imagine him sending in his resume for the next job in the industry...

"I was the QA guy for Vanguard"

"The thing they shipped this spring and that tanked due to being unplayable 4 months later?"

"Yes....."

"Thank you for your time, dont call us, we will call you if we have an opening...."

Poor QA guy....

They would think he was a miracle worker just get done what he did do though! Especially when you think of how much stuff an MMO has to test for.

[Mkopec1]

The problem I had with Neric/Ut was not the rants, and not even the repetitiveness of their posts. Its their negativity which pissed me off. They never wanted VG to succeed. They wanted it to fail from the start, because of some unfounded hate of Brad or Sony or whatever. Bottom line is that they WANTED the game to fail, and arguing from that perspective is wrong and not in the right spirit of things.

UT was wrong on so many levels. For example bashing SoE and whatever they did for a long time, but yet in his "List of games played" was filled to the brim with SoE titles. I mean, if you hate a company so much why even buy and play their products. Its is as if he purchased them and played them just to find shit to bitch about. Again, its hipocritical and wrong on so many levels.

Lets be real here. These are game companies were taking about here. They are not there to steal your money or do you wrong in some way. And although they are there to make money, I dont see some big grand conspiracy theories to fuck people over. We dont need people like him, at least I dont. I feel Im pretty informed as a gamer.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by rinthea

f13.net: Did they set the milestones?

Ex-Sigil: They set monthly milestones. They wanted a succesful MMOG. They had so many false starts with other things that they just wanted a profitable game.

f13.net: They weren't trying to be the next WoW?

Ex-Sigil: Anyone who thinks you can make a WoW killer these days is foolish to try. You need to be your own game. WoW is a juggernaut and really needs to not be the watermark for success. WoW is a tough subject around Sigil too...

f13.net: Why?

Ex-Sigil: There are a lot of people, Brad included who were certain it would be a short-lived game. Some, in fact, including Brad, never played it. WoW should have been the example of 'look at what a good game can do!' when instead it was often spoken of like a bad thing.

Maybe Brad can get around to playing WoW in the copious free time he has nowadays, and pick up a few pointers for the next catastrophe he'll try to build.

[Neric]

Originally Posted by Kaylena

Well, they were kicked out of the beta as you know. Then people were feeding them information on the side due to the NDA.

Not quite, but almost. I was in Beta 2 and stopped playing after something a few weeks. From then on I kept reading the Beta boards and even made a few suggestions, but after a rather long period of inactivity my access got shut down. If they tracked down my IP or if it happend in the process of Beta maintenance, I don't know. Still my main criticism was always based on conceptional flaws that were part of the core design and not open for drastical changes during later stages of the Beta.

As for Utnayan, he stopped posting on the subject after getting into the Beta out of respect for the NDA. This is no joke, you can follow the timeline of his postings and you will see.

Originally Posted by Faith

(source:F13.net - Usefully Cynical Commentary » The Long and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online: Interview Edition )

That's a really sad story. For me at least three conclusions can be drawn from it. If the boss is an idiot, it's always the employees who get shafted in the end. Brad's personality and his leadership abilities were pretty close to the profile I had in mind. Last but not least, Microsoft should sue Sigil for fraud, based on the fake product demonstrations.

Finally I want to say that in the beginning I was very optimistic about Vanguard. Like many others I had an account on the SGO board and like many others I made a few suggestions and took part in the discussion. It all changed at one specific point and that was when this screenshot got released (around E3 2005, if I remember correctly):



This screenshot gave me reason for concern, so I tried to obtain more information about the game. Unfortunately everything I could find confirmed my opinion that this game was heading in the wrong direction and unfortunately nothing happend ever since to cast doubt on this conclusion. It was just a steady process of going downhill.

Lately I found another weird thing which somehow puts the whole story in a nutshell. It's about the first unofficial Alpha screenshot that got leaked years ago and Brad trying to recreate the scenario much later in Beta 3. When I compare those screenshots, I have to admit that I like the Alpha version much more. If you had a choice, in which scenario would you want to play?

Anyways, for me those two screenshots in a way show that Vanguard just got worse and worse the longer it took...

[realadxm]

Good luck to those that lost their jobs.