SOE to own VG - Sigil fires employees

[Miele]

Originally Posted by Gousgounis

...
I always saw Vanguard with (to quote penny-arcade) “cautious optimism” as I try to take any extreme opinion or obvious conflict of interest with a grain of salt so I didn’t really ever buy all the promises from Brad and company, but unfortunately most of the criticisms from the posters here came off as mostly dismissible as well (regardless of being right or wrong, if you wanted to convey a message to help, in the end you have failed because of the way you delivered it.
...

I'm sorry, but I disagree.
Utnayan and the others pointed out feature by feature what was wrong with the game, more often than not replying to people who couldn't swallow the truth and called them names.
I'm not an Utnayan fan because I think he went too far too often, but sure as hell I applud him for the patience of explaining in details all those things that just were wrong with VG.
When he said that Smed contacted him for an interview, I was happy for him, because he has an analitycal mind (and god knows if he also had an agenda) and such attention to details is what makes a game great instead of "meh".
I wouldn't say I'd hire him as Producer right away, but I'd at least give him a chance to prove himself.

I am not at a loss of 100$ for buying 2 boxes of VG because of the comments he did. That does matter, at least to me.

With all the info coming out for VG now, including the one I just read about submitting small useless demos to Microsoft, which if true would be quite disgusting, I think each and every point evidenced by the "Ut crew" has been proven true and the situation was and is probably worse than he ever imagined it could have been.

This been said I read Ut and others comments more often than not for pure internet entertainment value, but sure enough he had a point and he only did the mistake of rehashing it too often, which didn't disturb me in the least, but he was like the antichrist for the various vanbois who couldn't see the truth.

I said it and I repeat it again: VG excited me when it was announced, their official boards decline with the rabid vanbois spouting the "go back to WoW" got me out of there asap and I had little to no interest in associating myself with such idiots and their crusade, so I went back to WoW and gave Blizzard my hard earned cash and had fun while they were jerking off in front of a Brad picture.

I fully agree with EmiliaEQ, there is a market for a game like VG was supposed to be, I may even be part of that niche because, rose colored glasses aside, I miss deeply some features of EQ (only some), but the potential audience should stop shitting on other gamers because they also embrace another game among their favourites.

[rinthea]

Can someone explain to me what a scripting language is and why it would be important for designers to have? (or not have )

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by rinthea

Can someone explain to me what a scripting language is and why it would be important for designers to have? (or not have )

It's a pre-built mini-program. In a graphical MUD I once dabbled in, it was what we used to build the game. You didn't need to be a programmer when you had that, you just needed to understand how the building client worked. You used that to add things into the game.

The main programmer usually is the one who implements the system for others to use.

I have no idea how they survived without one. Amazing!

I have no idea how it's done today, but it has to be much more complex then what I did. Today it's scripting entire game engines.

If you think of WoW's LUA language for addons. That's a scripting language so the person doesn't need to understand the more complex code of the game's actual program.

[chalon]

Originally Posted by rinthea

Can someone explain to me what a scripting language is and why it would be important for designers to have? (or not have )

A scripting language is something like Lua. Usually in games, the actual engine is written in C++, which only programmers modify, and then you have a scripting language which you use for gameplay code. The scripting language is usually setup in a way such that both programmers and designers can edit it. So if for instance you had some NPC start talking to you, and then walk around and fight someone, that would be written in the scripting language, not into the engine itself.

I'm actually pretty perplexed by the interview comments about the tools, because Vanguard started with the Unreal Engine, which really has amazing tools (including a scripting system built into the editor, in addition to UnrealScript). It sounds like Sigil massively gutted the system if the tools were that bad though.

[Danth]

"I am not at a loss of 100$ for buying 2 boxes of VG because of the comments he did. That does matter, at least to me." --Miele

I did spend that $100 on two boxes as well as $1500+ on two PC's and don't consider it a loss. Going into it, I considered about 5 months of gameplay my break even point. I've gotten about that out of Vanguard (counting beta)--and I won't cancel in the near future. When I'm done with it I still walk away with two decent PC's that'll run any other game I care to play quite nicely for some time to come. That's a heck of a lot more than I would have gotten out of a couple weeks in Vegas. From my perspective, Vanguard has been generally satisfactory, though it falls depressingly far short of its potential.

Vanguard stinks if you judge it based on what it could have, no, should have been. I judge it based on a market which offers utterly nothing else which appeals to me. When something I like better appears, I'll move on. If Utanyan saved you from a poor purchase, good, but I'm not sure why it took him to tell you anything you couldn't already decide for yourself if you cared to look.

Danth

[Miele]

I don't want to believe what is in that interview.
Especially the part where one makes a comment about buying a new house with his stocks share, in front of 60 fired people. That's being an asshole on more than one level.

[Flight]

Originally Posted by Duppin

This board USED to have far more value than it does now, because while the people here were cynical, jaded gamers, and would call you out if all you posted was bullshit, the USERS were also held responsible for what they posted here, and got the smackdown from Furor/TBH if they got out of line.


I just want people to be cognizant of the fact that you can still disagree with someone in a CIVIL manner.

I like the boards here a lot more these days, except for the absence of a small number of high profile posters. I do agree with you about people getting smacked down by Furor - he kept the core of the board on real issues. His rants against people were as productive and on the ball as his rants against in game issues.


The problem with the boards back then was everyone would copy his language with no real susbtance to what they were saying.


'You're wrong, suck my cock'.

'Fuck you, the game rawks'

'Fucking game is fucking fucked up beyond all fucking worth the fucking fuck fuck'.



These days the wheat has been sorted from the chaff. Even the 'fucking fuck fucks' are people with valid input. I don't think this board has ever had so much value as it does now - there isn't another place in the world with such a large core of MMORPG players with so much depth of knowledge and experience. And thats being added to all the time.



edit :

Originally Posted by Duppin

Early on, Brad attempted to have real conversations with folks regarding a game that he was excited about, and that yes, he wanted them to get excited about too.

Now, he always gave me the "traveling snake oil salesman" vibe a bit, too, but early on I really think he was trying to have a good back and forth with hardcore gamers

He gave up, I think, when it was clear that he was going to be attacked

What you describe is not how I remember things being, at first; but I don't have the level of e-grudge against Brad that a lot of folks here do, and perhaps I saw his early posts in a different light than you did.

It's easy to paint him as the great Satan of gaming, but I think in the end he just had very large ideas that he had no idea how to effectively put into practice.

I don't have a grudge against Brad, but I think you are being naive. The guys keeps all the magazine covers about himself on his office wall, proclaiming him one of the Gods of MMORPGs. Have a read of this post.

I'm no trying to put the knife into the bloke, I'm just saying, if he has consistently refused to take any advice from so many top people around him in the development of Vanguard, how can you believe he is going to be something else on an anonymous forum ?


My point is I think you are selling the forums here these days short. And like everyone else, my concern is with the folks and families who have lost their jobs.

[mek]

Originally Posted by Usha Starchild

I guarantee no one is happy about the failure, people lost jobs. We should stop bickering about who is to blame and wish these guys the best.

No, I don't think we'll be doing that. The poor sods that worked massive overtime for a year to ship something, well, we may never know their names. The least we can do to honor them is heap spite and contempt upon Brad.

Great interview.

[Ayeshala]

A scripting language is a simplified (intentionally) programming language that allows a game designer with a basic understanding of programming to do most of the « cool stuff » you see in custom made encounters.

You can either ask a programmer to do the custom code for this (which is stupid considering the amount of scripted content a modern MMOG needs, your designers will quickly overwhelm your programmers with a zillion micro tasks), or the programmers can create a tool that allows you to do this “visually”. But if the necessary tools don’t exist (you just had a !awesome! idea but there’s nothing in the current tools that supports this) and you have access to a scripting language, you can create a custom script.

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Flight

The problem with the boards back then was everyone would copy his language with no real susbtance to what they were saying.


'You're wrong, suck my cock'.

'Fuck you, the game rawks'

'Fucking game is fucking fucked up beyond all fucking worth the fucking fuck fuck'.

ROFL! OMG, that is soooo true, Flight and so well written! It's still like that! You still get a veteran in here cursing up a storm, but he's making his points and along comes some person, that you KNOW is just trying to be cool adding his, "FUCK YEAH!" reply and everyone just destroys him.

So brutal!

[Faith]

Originally Posted by Miele

With all the info coming out for VG now, including the one I just read about submitting small useless demos to Microsoft, which if true would be quite disgusting, I think each and every point evidenced by the "Ut crew" has been proven true and the situation was and is probably worse than he ever imagined it could have been.

I think that the bitching at the "Ut crew" was mostly for posting the same facts over and over and over and over and over and over and OVER again. At least that is what pissed me off. Its one thing to post about what you feel is wrong about the game, its something else entirely to repeat the same shit every 2 posts. Spamming the same thing day in and day out will get you nowhere. Yes, they were right in fact, but just like Brads repeated hype, they failed totaly in delivering the information in a way people would not revolt against and spam them to death. If you want to enlighten people you cant behave like a broken record.

Ut usualy started with a good post about why XX sucked, but then let himself get dragged into a prolonged flame-war with some random fan of vanguard ending up in "you suck!" "oh yeah? you suck more!1one". Its a certain way to get ignored despite having legitim issues over something. Most people on this board should think about that for a bit (yes, including me), calling people idiots, pussys, retards and so on dont make you win at the internet. It make you look like an idiot/pussy/retard.

[Nairbog]

That interview was depressing, it sucks to hear negative things about Dave, I had no clue who he was but I felt cautiously optimistic that he'd be better than Brad. Apparently that is not the case :\. After seeing Nino/Elidroth let go (and I'm sure, countless other devs I came to respect throughout beta) my optimism I felt earlier is pretty much gone. I'm still going to wait and see what the next couple patches hold, but if they continue to be so poorly thought out I'm going to have to give up on VG for now. It's too bad because I still maintain that there is alot of great content in the game, it's amazing what the team managed to pump out in the last 9 months or so of beta especially considering the tools/management.

[Tirinal]

Meh. I'm not really interested in berating people for incompetence. Talent, or the lack thereof, is usually there in whatever quantity it is and that's that. Brad had an opportunity to do something grand, he fucked up. Fine. Life goes on, albeit a touch more in grayscale.

Delegating the mass, impromptu firing of your enitre team at no notice in a parking lot, however, is just an act of cowardice and nothing else. Of all the things to not be there in person for. Some of those people probably signed up for the team in part because of the McQuaid name.
__

By the way, I'm curious. Is there any technical or design reason to eschew a scripting language? Presumably when the block was enacted they still had an operating budget and the chance to salvage some measure of the game. Why would you enforce manual coding of features?

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Faith

I think that the bitching at the "Ut crew" was mostly for posting the same facts over and over and over and over and over and over and OVER again. At least that is what pissed me off. Its one thing to post about what you feel is wrong about the game, its something else entirely to repeat the same shit every 2 posts. Spamming the same thing day in and day out will get you nowhere. Yes, they were right in fact, but just like Brads repeated hype, they failed totaly in delivering the information in a way people would not revolt against and spam them to death. If you want to enlighten people you cant behave like a broken record.

Ut usualy started with a good post about why XX sucked, but then let himself get dragged into a prolonged flame-war with some random fan of vanguard ending up in "you suck!" "oh yeah? you suck more!1one". Its a certain way to get ignored despite having legitim issues over something. Most people on this board should think about that for a bit (yes, including me), calling people idiots, pussys, retards and so on dont make you win at the internet. It make you look like an idiot/pussy/retard.

I'll say it again. To be fair, Utnayan replied to too many replies to his posts and that's what always got the ball rolling downhill.

But you can't negate the fact that he was often swarmed the minute he posted. He'd make one comment and 15 people who didn't like him had something to say -- mostly people with nothing constructive to say at all except call him names. That would put anyone in a bad mood.

I think he took most of it in stride. Some of his comebacks were the funniest remarks I've ever read.

[Nairbog]

The main problem I had with Utnayan/Neric is that it was obvious from their comments that they were not active in the beta, but seemed to argue based on hearsay. There were plenty of times they said things that were true at one point but didn't apply at the present time. It bugged me alot because I wanted to point these inconsistencies out but couldn't due to the NDA. I'm not saying they didn't have valid points, but this is what ired me at the time. As someone who had been testing the game since early beta 2, and believe me the game was 100x more incomplete then, what I saw near the middle of beta 3 gave me hope that they could turn it around given enough time, and I still think they could have.