SOE to own VG - Sigil fires employees

[Faith]

Originally Posted by Elidroth Renato

I'd just as soon put this all behind me and get on with my life.

While I understand that, you also have to understand that this is like a car-crash. People want to know details, people are going to stop and stare in morbid faschination at the end result. I dont think there has been such an catastrophic failure in the industry yet. Even SWG and Earth and Beyond had a longer grace period before they were written off. Its like the AO launch, but on crack and its on your yard swinging a bat cackling at you.

That being said, I hope you find an new job asap and can continue with a new game.

[Zarcath]

This board USED to have far more value than it does now, because while the people here were cynical, jaded gamers, and would call you out if all you posted was bullshit, the USERS were also held responsible for what they posted here, and got the smackdown from Furor/TBH if they got out of line.

I think you're wrong here. The value of this board may not be the same as it used to be, but it still has value.

I think the responsibility factor is just more dispersed now. Back when we just had EQ and a "small community", even if we were on different servers, all the major players knew each other and were accountable for what they said.

The forums now cater to a much wider and diverse crowd, how many MMO discussions do we have going now days? EQ/EQ2/WoW/EVE/VG? The demographic here may not be as hardcore elitest as it used to be, but we all expect quality products and services.

There are still people here that are fixtures for responsibility and accountability, including devs. Though the devs are few and far between, all of us know how these forums are and we know how the industry is, unforgiving. Devs that are accountable are devs that can be fired. And We don't need Furor/TBH to lay the smack down or telling it like it is to get closure. His posting activity should never be a question of him being in any kind of trouble, it'd say it's more of an avoidance of conflicting interests.

edit: And for all the Brad sympathy going around. There comes a point in your life where you should be able to recognize when you're out of your league and truely need help. No one can really say what went through his head but this outcome doesn't lend to him deserving sympathy for his actions. Working in the industry, yeah, you want to keep bridges and you might call them friends, but all of us have those friends that end up hammered and passed out in the ditch, while you're standing there, shaking your head wondering why you're still friends. You don't make excuses for their actions.

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by Elidroth Renato

I'm in the same boat here as Nino, except I don't have a job. Brad never intended for this to happen.

Brad and I share many similar interests outside of work. I consider him my friend as well and in the end, this is all just business. It hurts now, but we'll move on. Life will go on. For most of you reading this, you're only really out a little bit of money (in the grand scheme of things).

I'm not absolving him of anything, but like Nino said, nothing is to be gained by rubbing salt in the wounds.

I'd just as soon put this all behind me and get on with my life.

Can try to put in with 38studios :P I dont know if you wannna leave San Diego though. Thats the only other place in Cali i would move too. I live in a shithole in the Central Valley atm. Its to fucking hot and Allergies suck :P

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Duppin

. . . .
Was he here to sell his product? You bet. So is every single dev that has ever, or will ever, post here,
. . . .

You are absolutely right. But, how one approaches this forum makes the difference, and Brad did it poorly.

[Duppin]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

You are absolutely right. But, how one approaches this forum makes the difference, and Brad did it poorly.

Sure he did. I'm simply saying that chief among the mistakes that he made was to attempt to respond to the more obvious trolls as if they were interested in anything other than "pwning" him, and that they're just as culpable in all of this as he was, if not more so.

And yes, I'm guilty of the same thing. Mea maxima culpa.

Nobody comes out of this looking rosy.

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Duppin

Sure he did. I'm simply saying that chief among the mistakes that he made was to attempt to respond to the more obvious trolls as if they were interested in anything other than "pwning" him, and that they're just as culpable in all of this as he was, if not more so.

And yes, I'm guilty of the same thing. Mea maxima culpa.

Nobody comes out of this looking rosy.

Culpable? In what way? Are you referring to the lack of developer interaction on this forum or are you referring to Vanguard not turning out the way he expected?

[rinthea]

since when did culpable become the new buzz word?

[Gnome Eater]

I feel horrendously bad for those developers in Vanguard who had nothing to do in the failure but lost their jobs. Sorry guys, best of luck with the future, the MMORPG industry is red hot though and I am hoping you will be able to land on your feet.

As always, it is sad that those that are responsible for failures are not those that end up paying for them, in the end though we all have to make peace with the actions we have done. I am sure that the Vanguard direction was just chronically flawed, not malignant, and hopefully this sends an extremly clear message to the MMORPG community about what the future holds.

Smed/Brad, if you can post something once the dust settles down, it would be appreciated, but I understand how all the details are highly confidential.

Sure he did. I'm simply saying that chief among the mistakes that he made was to attempt to respond to the more obvious trolls as if they were interested in anything other than "pwning" him, and that they're just as culpable in all of this as he was, if not more so.

If you mean 'biggest mistakes' in regards to his relationship with this board's readership, I agree. If you mean biggest mistake in regards to the direction Vanguard took, not by a fucking long shot.

[Lady Daegarmo]

Originally Posted by Faith

People want to know details

It was a really great company, with a lot of incredible ideas, that was full of friends, and it's very sad that it didn't work out the way that everyone hoped that it would.

I'm sure people only want to hear about the bad details, not the good ones, but some of us on the "cut list" hold no ill will to anyone at Sigil.

Even though I will be headed elsewhere in the industry, I would not hesitate to be on another project with any of the former management team, that includes my friend Brad.

G

[Gousgounis]

I have followed these boards since 2002 and I have only had the desire to post a handful of times, but either time would not allow it, or the site would not cooperate, so when a few minutes ago I had the rare urge, and the stars aligned, I almost felt obligated to finally post. A lot has changed since I first stumbled upon this site, back then I was still leveling and learning my troll shaman, and FoH was doing VT. Change is inevitable and as such these boards have also changed and in my personal opinion not for the better.
I cannot even put my finger on why, when and how things starting changing. Maybe I am older, maybe you can only read so many rants before they all sound the same, but FoH is not what it used to be. It has been mentioned before but Furor’s rants were intrinsically different than the ones we read today, and that’s fortunate since I don’t think anyone could out-Furor Furor, even though it seems some futilely try.

Honoring my first post here, I could write a book on my view of what I have seen (as a neutral party) in the last few years, but I am already exceeding the forum’s short attention span and some of you have already quit reading and replying with a random flame so instead I will touch on the subject at hand that made me want to post after 42 pages.

I don’t remember Brad ever wanting sincere and candid discussion here, at least not in public, where I could see it. It always seemed to be fluff or PR crap. I am not saying that the responses he got were warranted, so I agree with Duppin here, but, honestly he never tried, that whole honest feedback thing. I always saw Vanguard with (to quote penny-arcade) “cautious optimism” as I try to take any extreme opinion or obvious conflict of interest with a grain of salt so I didn’t really ever buy all the promises from Brad and company, but unfortunately most of the criticisms from the posters here came off as mostly dismissible as well (regardless of being right or wrong, if you wanted to convey a message to help, in the end you have failed because of the way you delivered it. It is funny and ironic that Brad is getting blamed for his delivery here, when I think the critics did not manage to salvage their own collective credibility, because of their delivery, before Sigil & VG were obviously in trouble).

In the end being blunt, belligerent, brutally honest, confrontational and expect the same from others is absolutely ok by me, as well as holding people accountable for what they say and do (hopefully in a perfect world, everyone would be, not just the visitors, but the residents as well). But that can be accomplished with class, civility, confidence in your knowledge and authority, but without having to resort to attention grabbing, cheap, shallow and meaningless remarks that honestly are quickly forgotten. Evidence of that is the constant need to quote “pwnage” from even a page ago, because honestly it does not have the lasting power to even carry through a click of “next”

Sorry If I sound condescending or bring a sense of entitlement, but I have not given up on these boards, there are many intelligent people here, that I value their opinions. Bandwidth and hits are not all that matters, if the material here is becoming less a discourse in gaming and more the equivalent of Gaming Jerry Springer.

Thanks for reading if you got this far,

Gous

[Duppin]

Originally Posted by Gnome Eater

If you mean 'biggest mistakes' in regards to his relationship with this board's readership, I agree. If you mean biggest mistake in regards to the direction Vanguard took, not by a fucking long shot.

Yes, that's what I meant (to address Kaylena's question also).

Lots of other mistakes were made throughout the course of Vanguard's timeline, of course.

Those have all been pointed out enough that I don't think I need to detail them.

[Arukk]

Originally Posted by Elidroth Renato

I'm in the same boat here as Nino, except I don't have a job. Brad never intended for this to happen.

Brad and I share many similar interests outside of work. I consider him my friend as well and in the end, this is all just business. It hurts now, but we'll move on. Life will go on. For most of you reading this, you're only really out a little bit of money (in the grand scheme of things).

I'm not absolving him of anything, but like Nino said, nothing is to be gained by rubbing salt in the wounds.

I'd just as soon put this all behind me and get on with my life.

Fuck that!

Brad lied! He knew he was lying. He lied to us. He can kiss my ass! He doesnt have the balls to show up and answer for this. He hides behind the fear the employees that were let go today feel, in finding another job. He is a coward! Its ALL about money! This was, and is, his train wreck. No spinning will EVER change that, and he knows it. He knew it a year ago.

-Arukk

[Sinter1]

Originally Posted by Lady Daegarmo

It was a really great company, with a lot of incredible ideas, that was full of friends, and it's very sad that it didn't work out the way that everyone hoped that it would.

I'm sure people only want to hear about the bad details, not the good ones, but some of us on the "cut list" hold no ill will to anyone at Sigil.

Even though I will be headed elsewhere in the industry, I would not hesitate to be on another project with any of the former management team, that includes my friend Brad.

G

Holy shit its Lady D... this thread is bringing em all out. Now we need Blizzard to loosen the muzzles of Tigole and Furor and have a dev battle royale!

[Calroon]

Indeed, a few well timed 1st ever posts here. Drama always works best to get 'em, doesn't it.

[Faith]

Originally Posted by Lady Daegarmo

I'm sure people only want to hear about the bad details, not the good ones, but some of us on the "cut list" hold no ill will to anyone at Sigil.

Oh people want the bad details of course, its in the nature of the beast after all. Its prime-time drama, and people want to picture Brad as the evil Emperor sitting on his throne, overlooking the construction of the new super-MMORPG that will bring the WoW-rebels into submission, with Jeff beside him in a dark cape playing the role of the dark apprentice.

Unfortunatly reality is not really cut in black and white, there are lots of shades of grey. Im sure Sigil was a fun place to work at, lots of people sharing a passion for gaming, lots of toys (sorry could not resist!) and a management that had experience of development (though not management it seems) and maybe a hands-on approach. As much as people usualy hate managers, they really DO have their place in the production chain. Someone have to have the skill to organize things and check that the plan is on track. Since I have no insight in how Sigil was administrated, all this is speculation from my side of course, but I think it might have been a bit too much "buddy-buddy" and "heeey! lets try to get this to work, it would be sooooo cool to have in the game" and a bit too little "Nice suggestion, file it for the expansion next year. In the meanwhile, how close are you to finishing XXX...?"