SOE to own VG - Sigil fires employees

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by Duppin

As awesome as it is to be able to chat with Curt Schilling on a message board, I wouldn't qualify any of what has happened in that thread, at least as far as discussion of his project goes, as being interesting back and forth. It's basically the same marketing fluff that people screamed at Brad about. I mean, we know what at this point? That he's churning out yet another fantasy game, and some of the people he's got working on the game. That's it.

And Furor and Tigole were largely muzzled here because of what this place had already turned into, a haven for people to try to "count coup" on developers who had to be accountable for what they said, while they themselves did not.

From a public relations/marketing standpoint, this place turned from a nice little backchannel to access hardcore gamers in the market, to an enormous fucking landmine.

Is Brad somewhat culpable for that, and very culpable for Vanguard's failures? Absolutely. He never should've given people like Utnayan, Neric, Hiram Key, etc, the benefit of the doubt and attempted to have discussions with them based on the assumption that productive discussion was what they were interested in.

But when the next dev uses this place to just spit out press releases ad nauseam, you can just check this thread for an easy reference of who you can thank.

Yep, i get why do you even bother with that fucked up place all the time. I enjoy most of it, but this place does not have a good reputation for shit.

[aw3s0me]

Originally Posted by Istros

WoW was in its earliest stages of development when "the original idea behind Vanguard" was conceived, so dont even try to suggest that VG was an answer to that. It wasnt. Brad simply wanted to recreate EQ on a grander scale, and failed, even if there is a market for such a game (and Im pretty sure there is).

even though the concept of VG came out during the early stages of WoW could still mean VG was an answer to WoW in the minds of the gamers who followed its development (whether or not it was considered to be the answer at the beginning is irrelevent, it was still considered to be an answer at some point of its creation - however it turned out it wasn't).

heck this was taken from brad's page: "Been having fun in WoW or another MMOG, but looking for something new, something deeper?" its obvious that brad partly marketed VG to be the anti-wow/answer.

[Faith]

Originally Posted by Istros

WoW was in its earliest stages of development when "the original idea behind Vanguard" was conceived, so dont even try to suggest that VG was an answer to that. It wasnt. Brad simply wanted to recreate EQ on a grander scale, and failed, even if there is a market for such a game (and Im pretty sure there is).

I didnt intend to say "omg they copied a game who was not realesed when they planned Vanguard!". What I mean is that since it was NOT planned to be a clone of WoW, it had the chance to diversify the MMORPG market if it had been sucsessful. Im sorry if that was unclear.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Duppin

OMGROFLLOL U SURE PWNED ME ON TEH INTERNETS

The highly amusing irony is that the same crew of retards that is e-towel snapping each other in joy over their defeat of the evil Vanguard monster are the same people directly responsible for the fact that this board will never be used to have any sort of interesting back and forth communication with any MMORPG developer ever again.

The very "spin" and "marketing" that they decry from the cross they climbed up on (I can't take credit for that, props to Samflam), they have ensured is all we'll be getting from here on out.

But it's okay, because they've won the internet!

It's just the rest of us who've lost.

You know Duppin there is a big difference between dialog and manipulation. Brad was trying to manipulate this board to hawk his game. He wasn't trying to actually develop any dialog with the readers. If the lesson learned is don't try to con us here then good. But if you think it is more important to have these "important" developers post on this forum, regardless of content, well that is silly.

[ZProtoss]

There was another lesson reinforced by the entire fiasco that was Vanguard. A shitty beta will equate into a shitty game. There is no magical button to be pushed that "fixes everything" at release. So if you still have massive holes in your beta and you're only 2 months out from release, then you may as well kiss your game goodbye.

As much shit as Blizzard gets with their reputation of constantly delaying and pushing back the release date of games, it's certainly a lot better than the alternative you see from other companies.


So please, remember this lesson when 3 years from now the board is hyped up about some MMO, it has a terrible beta, and you have the next generation of fanboys for that game claiming "ITS OK ITS ONLY BETA!". Remember Vanguard, and remind them that it's not okay.

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Duppin

Hopefully the fact that a lot of people just watched something they put a lot of their time and energy into go down the tubes doesn't get lost in the sound of people patting themselves on the back for being the second coming of Nostradamus.

Also, that Grouchy Gamer guy came off as a whiny bitch, regardless of whether what he said was true or not.

No one is doing that, Duppin. At least not the people you remember from the old threads. I don't see any towel-snapping from them really.

That whiny Gamer guy was never in those discussions. He just registered here recently to spam his blog. And why? Because some people just don't like being on the side that they perceive "lost", so they print things to look important after the fact.

And I know you don't want to hear this, but if some people didn't snap towels at Utnayan, it probably wouldn't have gotten to the point that it did. He replied to everyone that took a shot at him but he didn't always take the first shot, at all.

I don't think that's the reason you're not going to see much interaction with developers, though. Most of them have kept a fine distance from the beginning. It's always been short, sweet and to the point from most of them, if anything at all. Brad made up for that for all of them in that respect, but Brad wasn't the norm.

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

You know Duppin there is a big difference between dialog and manipulation. Brad was trying to manipulate this board to hawk his game. He wasn't trying to actually develop any dialog with the readers. If the lesson learned is don't try to con us here then good. But if you think it is more important to have these "important" developers post on this forum, regardless of content, well that is silly.

Only thing is the guy who made this board famous with his rands is even prohibited from posting here now days. Something has to be wrong.

[Duppin]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

You know Duppin there is a big difference between dialog and manipulation. Brad was trying to manipulate this board to hawk his game. He wasn't trying to actually develop any dialog with the readers. If the lesson learned is don't try to con us here then good. But if you think it is more important to have these "important" developers post on this forum, regardless of content, well that is silly.

Later? Absolutely.

Early on, Brad attempted to have real conversations with folks regarding a game that he was excited about, and that yes, he wanted them to get excited about too.

Now, he always gave me the "traveling snake oil salesman" vibe a bit, too, but early on I really think he was trying to have a good back and forth with hardcore gamers that he could, yes, then use to try to make his game better.

He gave up, I think, when it was clear that he was going to be attacked, often on a really personal and staggeringly inappropriate level, no matter what he posted. That's when he started posting what basically amounted to marketing fluff, and while Brad is culpable for many things in the demise of Vanguard (particularly if the part about him not having even shown up in the office for the last six months is really true, what the hell is that?), I don't blame him, at all, for giving up on this board.

This board USED to have far more value than it does now, because while the people here were cynical, jaded gamers, and would call you out if all you posted was bullshit, the USERS were also held responsible for what they posted here, and got the smackdown from Furor/TBH if they got out of line.

Once that went away, the inmates were essentially running the asylum, and that was the beginning of the end.

edit because I was posting a book and some things were said in the meantime:

Yeah, some of us who were "opposing" Utnayan (and his 'crew', but I'll simplify for the sake of discussion) went too far sometimes; I'd argue that we didn't go as over the top as he did, but obviously opinions vary about that. But I never understood why it was "okay" with people that he call out Brad for posting things he didn't agree with, but it wasn't okay to call HIM out for posting things that we didn't agree with? Why was there only a "problem" when people started trying to get him to stop repeating the same shit ad nauseam?

Regardless, that's water under the bridge now, and I'm willing to take responsibility for, and yes even apologize for my part in it. I just want people to be cognizant of the fact that you can still disagree with someone in a CIVIL manner, and that if you want to encourage devs to be willing to talk candidly with the community of this board about their games, you have to extend them that basic level of civility, even if you might not feel that they've earned it.

[Kaylena]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

You know Duppin there is a big difference between dialog and manipulation. Brad was trying to manipulate this board to hawk his game. He wasn't trying to actually develop any dialog with the readers. If the lesson learned is don't try to con us here then good. But if you think it is more important to have these "important" developers post on this forum, regardless of content, well that is silly.

It's about selling a product, exactly.

And they will take down the Affiliate boards to control the content there, which is why I post here.

PM waiting for you, Max.

[Maxxius]

Well you post here you take your chances. I never viewed this forum as a perpetual safe free commercial. But the readers see sincerity (i.e., Scott, Nino) and give them due credit.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Duppin

Later? Absolutely.

Early on, Brad attempted to have real conversations with folks regarding a game that he was excited about, and that yes, he wanted them to get excited about too.

Now, he always gave me the "traveling snake oil salesman" vibe a bit, too, but early on I really think he was trying to have a good back and forth with hardcore gamers that he could, yes, then use to try to make his game better.

He gave up, I think, when it was clear that he was going to be attacked, often on a really personal and staggeringly inappropriate level, no matter what he posted. That's when he started posting what basically amounted to marketing fluff, and while Brad is culpable for many things in the demise of Vanguard (particularly if the part about him not having even shown up in the office for the last six months is really true, what the hell is that?), I don't blame him, at all, for giving up on this board.

This board USED to have far more value than it does now, because while the people here were cynical, jaded gamers, and would call you out if all you posted was bullshit, the USERS were also held responsible for what they posted here, and got the smackdown from Furor/TBH if they got out of line.

Once that went away, the inmates were essentially running the asylum, and that was the beginning of the end.

Bullshit. He never tried to have any real dialog since he was too contemptuous of the readership's opinions. He had his vision and that was that. He was that way with EQ, and he was clearly that way with VG. He went back on so many promises here it is not even worth recounting. The hits he took on this forum were deserved. And as the old saying goes, if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. Now if you want a forum where you only get pom pom posts for developers, go to their controlled websites and have at it. But if a developer truly wants dialog and not manipulation, then perhaps they will venture forth here. It can work if sincere. Otherwise, aside from entertaining drama, it really is no loss.

[Faith]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

Well you post here you take your chances. I never viewed this forum as a perpetual safe free commercial. But the readers see sincerity (i.e., Scott, Nino) and give them due credit.

Exactly, its not like MOST people here throw shit at the devs if they are straight with what they post. Of course its taking a risk posting on a public forum, but it can also give you huge benefits (see how the opinion of EQ2 is now compared to launch) if you deal with it in a good way.

[Welwood]

Maybe now smugglers will get a good review and be able to actually smuggle something.

Wait...

[Duppin]

I had a flame written up, but I'll just say this instead:

What you describe is not how I remember things being, at first; but I don't have the level of e-grudge against Brad that a lot of folks here do, and perhaps I saw his early posts in a different light than you did.

Was he here to sell his product? You bet. So is every single dev that has ever, or will ever, post here, even the ones currently being lionized (and deservedly so, I think that Nino did the best he could in an incredibly difficult situation and he'll be a real asset to SOE or whoever else he ends up with in the long term).

It's easy to paint him as the great Satan of gaming, but I think in the end he just had very large ideas that he had no idea how to effectively put into practice.

[Elidroth Renato]

Originally Posted by Nino

For the record...of course Brad did not intend for this to happen; nor should people's ire be directed solely at him. Outside of work I spend time with Brad and we get along fine. I consider him a friend, and I want nothing more than to put all of this behind and move forward. This does not remove him from culpability; but there is nothing to be gained by rubbing it in. I said what I felt needed to be said, and hopefully that is that.

I'm in the same boat here as Nino, except I don't have a job. Brad never intended for this to happen.

Brad and I share many similar interests outside of work. I consider him my friend as well and in the end, this is all just business. It hurts now, but we'll move on. Life will go on. For most of you reading this, you're only really out a little bit of money (in the grand scheme of things).

I'm not absolving him of anything, but like Nino said, nothing is to be gained by rubbing salt in the wounds.

I'd just as soon put this all behind me and get on with my life.