SOE to own VG - Sigil fires employees

[Menion]

Originally Posted by Plorkyeran

Well, the obvious answer (other than hurr soe is retarded) is that he didn't think they'd be able to fix the problems in a reasonable timeframe. At a certain point, you just have to stop sinking money into something that isn't working.

Or you release it fucked up, watch it tank then buy it for dirt cheap and hope you can turn it around like they have done with EQ2 and make a profit on it.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Menion

Or you release it fucked up, watch it tank then buy it for dirt cheap and hope you can turn it around like they have done with EQ2 and make a profit on it.

Or you can hope it does well and provides you with free money for minimal effort. Just keep the servers on, print some boxes and collect a check. Frankly I have a hard time swallowing the conspiracy theory because SOE doesn't need Vanguard money, if it even makes any. They are better off without the burden and focusing on their own titles especially the upcoming ones that might pull SOE out of perpetual mediocrity and back into the limelight they once enjoyed with EQ.

[Goliath]

I think people forget how much money Everquest 2 cost. It is only recently starting to become a "success", but I doubt they've made all of their money back just yet.

[Twobit Whore]

A message from Jerrith over at SV.

Thanks for the mention. For those curious, I haven't been with Sigil since mid-March. I started working at Treyarch / Activision, as a multiplayer programmer on their upcoming James Bond title a little over three weeks ago.

I learned alot working on Vanguard, and there were good times (voluntary 96 hour work week) and bad times (mandatory 86 hour work week). In the end, I wish most of my former co-workers well, and hope they make it through these difficult times without too much difficulty.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Hmm, what to say?

I've enjoyed my time in Vanguard, and will continue to do so as long as I have fun. I've built good gaming relationships there that I hope will survive the transition and into the future.

I'd like to see something constructive done with the game, and think it still can be. I could see an EQ2 turnaround in 2 years, possibly less, though their choice in Dave Gilbertson as director on the project/staff has me less than thrilled - no offense Dave - this might be your opportunity to shine and, if allowed, show your ability to turn a dire situation around. That, and taking some of the more talented staff (Nino, et al) to work on a new project. However, SoE may be looking at more fundamental changes being needed first and foremost (bug fixes, performance, and so on).

As some have stated, I think Brad was removed with the SoE deal. Whether self-removed or as a condition of the publishing agreement, we can't be sure. It wouldn't surprise me though if SoE decided to remove one of their more vocal critics/former employees when he had to come back to them to ask for help - you're just asking for it in that situation. The direction of the game did start to radically change about that time. I'm not saying, though, that Brad wasn't responsible for a lot of the mismanagement up to and past that point, however.

As for the potential "I told you so" crowd of critics, I have to give credit to Utnayan for actually making a detailed, constructive and flame-free response when I asked him to name a "good element" of the game and give some input (Diplomacy). For any of those that were able to acknowledge some good in the project, despite it's obvious deficiencies, you've earned a right to have your say.

For those people who really do care about the state of MMO's overall, Vanguard's story, at least the last several chapters of it, has been painful for a variety of reasons. Let's hope for a better ending, and no repeats.

Good luck to those who were and weren't kept on at Sigil, or have moved on to other projects. Sorry things had to turn out this way.

[serrathen]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Brad - Either you are a complete moron or this was your plan all along. Either way hopefully you never get funding ever again to produce any more crappy MMO's with overhyped promises, your poor quality leadership, excuses, and spin. You f*cked your community again, and again, how could anyone trust you now? No wait... the real question should be with 30+ million dollars how could you have f*cked up so bad? Go play on your little dirt bikes and fast cars, hell I even remember you saying you would love to design cars... please do something else cause you have lost whatever touch you had at one point.

As far as what this means for the actual community and Vanboi's and Vangirls out there... if SoE doesn't rehire Talisker and Tagad, and places entirely different and competent directors and leadership in place of this great things may indeed happen, still there is alot of fixing to do, and re-release, re-marketing, etc ahead for SoE. SoE has a good track record of fixing bad games, and maybe Smedley's genius will prevail here.... Hell maybe he will even make it free with ads... lol.

Its a sad note this had to happen, cause truthfully it didn't. If Brad and Co would have listened to their hardcore testers telling them WTF 2 do during early beta 2-2.5 this game could have been much better. But again leave it to a moron who put out a questionaire with a backasswards rating scale, leaving them with what I strongly believe to be crappy information, along with listening to the wrong people... and here lies where Vanguard stands today. Furthermore if they would have just done ONE and only ONE island FULL of ENJOYABLE content (think Thestra) and released with just that they might have been able to pull off a great POLISHED and FUN game. Instead due to what I personally believe to be Brads overpromises and just plain talking out his ass, you have a game that should still be in Beta.

If I were SoE I would disconnect the continents, fix Thestra, fix gameplay, fix ALL the bugs, polish the game up, re-release it when its DONE. Furthermore I would drop the subscription fee to FREE with Station Pass for the time being and retarget this game to the hardcore market which I still believe should have been the target market the entire time. Make Vanguard about raiding, cause truthfully the ideas and concepts back in Beta when Ascension was doing raid testing were simply AWE INSPRING. Raiding should be the name of the game in Vanguard, cause again their raid ideas were just simply f*cking awesome. Furthermore entire chunks should be almost 100% raid content. Get people up in level fast and raid, raid, raid. Make the game fun again, cause I promise you it was at one time WAY WAY WAY back when.

To those devs I truly had / still have respect for (Jerrith [good luck on your new project], Cylus, Nino, Avair, the Tarr's, and those I forgot to mention) I wish you the best of luck and you worked your asses off to try to make this game great, yet your "leadership" set you all up to fail. And Smedley - you have alot of work to do, and its not gonna be as easy as it was with EQ.

I'm still wondering what does the Vision mean anyway....... well I hope we never know.

Dink Dimbwinkle
Aggro Magnet
Proud Member of Ascension
Ascension - A Raiding Guild

[Frax]

Originally Posted by Faille

I'd imagine the ex-employees are are in a tough position atm. Much as they would love to vent out and give those tell all stories, they know that they need to be looking for work soon, and no employer likes to hire people that have aired laundry in public, no matter how justified.

Oftentimes (at least here in the US) part of being laid off is signing an agreement about what you can and can't do so that they'll pay you severance. I'd imagine very few would risk anything even anonymously if they are in that situation.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Nino

Sony was kind enough to invite me and a few others to form a small team and to start prototyping a 'new' project. While we've done some 'secret' preliminary work, we begin in earnest tomorrow after we officially sign on with SOE. Don't bother asking about details, because you won't get any.
*****
I promised not to be publically scornful, but I will say this: I hope those truly responsible for the deep rooted failings of the company lay in bed tonight and relive the events that transpired today in their heads, over and over. For not ONE of you is without your job come tomorrow morning.

Congrats on the new job Nino. I'll guess from the 'hint' that its the spy MMO that Smed talked about the other day-- I'll be looking forward to it. Consider this a pre-app for closed beta ;p

Having been at a company in the '90s that ended up going bankrupt while executive management walked away with (literally) millions I appreciate the pain of the devs who were let go and have to find a job while those responsible for the mess have no such worries. Best of luck to all of them especially those who have been particularly helpful to the community: in particular Cylus and Teclisien--I hope you all found jobs with SOE and if not -- that you find new ones soon. No matter what happens with VG -- even if SOE manages to revive it to the pont where it has a sustainable population and can support content creation (and if anyone can do it its SOE) -- people are going to look back on what might have been had the game been properly sheparded through the development process.

Cheers

Oh and 2bit -- the book idea is fucking brilliant. It would sell a million copies. Hire Tracy Kidder.

[Muligan]

I really wish the best for those on the Sigil team and hopefully no one will be long without a job. I don't even know what to say... For some reason my perspective (not that it matters or should he care) on Brad is somewhat negative. I really feel he knew where this was going and he began thinking how to get some money out of this and get out. I read on another board he didn't show up for work for the last 8 months. Brad is a visionary, he typically hasn't some decent ideas but, I also think he's very good of staying in front of true talent. I've yet to see him successfully lead or manage anything for any amount of time. I guess that is all really unfair to Brad since he technically brought us EQ but then again I believe he received more credit for everything then he should have. Regardless, I wish him the best and I hope he does better next time.

Nino, I had a good friend on the VG team that now does not have a job. I'm a little bitter about all of this. I'm glad you and some others are at SoE and working on something (I wish I knew ;P) new. You have been real stand up guy through every bit of it and I agree with the others in saying you deserve much better. I hope you're successful at SoE along with the others.

Anyway, I hope this slows the MMO industry down a bit. Regardless of what Brad is or was, he is somewhat iconic in the industry. Everyone has seen the cashcow potential in the MMO world and we are getting some much quanity and less quality in the MMO industry. The increase of games has thinned out the player base as well and it's essentially hurting MMO's today. I'm really proud of what EQ2 has become and I hope the next SoE MMO reflects where EQ2 is today. I think a lot of lessons should be learned in all of this on both sides.

My best to everyone in the situation especially those who rightly deserve better opportunities and reward.

[kcxiv]

Hopefully then can get this ship turned around. I was sad to see Elrar go, he's one of the dev's that constantly posts and seem'ed like a good guy. Like Nino said, he did what he could with what he had.

If Brad had any kind of balls, he should post on a forum at least say, hey i tried, it just didnt happen.

[tad10]

Brad, since I know you're reading this thread (yes I checked out what Aradune Mith was reading right now at 11:56 PM EST 5/15). I am interested in hearing your side of the story -- to the extent that you can tell it (perhaps you are under an NDA).

Frankly Vanguard seems to be a classic case of the Second System effect.

Second-system effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway I'm all ears (or rather eyes)!

Edit: And for Heaven's sake write a book (with Nino). Seriously there is something in here for future generations.

[Mkopec1]

Bradley's coming around to shill his next gaming venture now that he offed VG?

[kcxiv]

Wonder if he posts? hehe

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Nino

. . .

I promised not to be publically scornful, but I will say this: I hope those truly responsible for the deep rooted failings of the company lay in bed tonight and relive the events that transpired today in their heads, over and over. For not ONE of you is without your job come tomorrow morning.

Glad you landed on your feet Nino, good talent is never ignored in the end. That last sentence, however, does beg some more details tho, heheh.

[kcxiv]

Ahh, he's gone, back to playing VG.