SOE to own VG - Sigil fires employees

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Mkopec1

But this statemrnt is in fact false. Because VG resembles WoW moreso than EQ. The only thing that really is left from the EQ days is the travel and non instance. The rest is basically WoW from the combat, to some of the harvesting bullshit.
There is nothing in VG that resembles the origional EQ design.

Well certainly the classes are EQ derivative. The combat is certainly a WoW derivative (with the main innovation --- as noted -- being the addition of the defensive target). The travel is now more like EQ w/ PoK with riftways and teleporters. I like VG's classes (just wish they hadn't been nerfed so badly after release) but I really wish American MMOS took their class cues from Asian MMOS like FFXI and RO -- subjobs/class switching are where all MMOs should be.

VG Harvesting is somewhat innovative. You have seperate clothes for harvesting for various bonuses and you have the ability for multiple people to harvest a node together for maximum output. Its one of VG's better ideas that is actually implemented quite well (automatically select tool, can help harvest a node that you would otherwise be unable to harvest as long as your harvesting skill is high enough. It annoys me in LOTRO that my harvesting tool isn't auto-selected-). VG harvesting is another thing that other games should copy.

The quest system is pretty wow-esque. Of the games I've played in the last two years I currently prefer LOTRO's quest system -- divides quests by region and/or sphere (crafting/epic/etc) and lets you have 40. The 20 quest limit in VG is retarded given that it is for all three spheres.

The death system is clearly an EQ derivative as was having most items be non-BOE. But that got changed and now far too many items are BOE just like WoW. EQ is still the only MMO I've played that got items right. BOE is an abomination unto the world of MMOs.


I do think one of VGs biggest problems for those from a mostly EQ background was the nature of dungeon/quest loot was very WoWish.
Ignoring uber-crafting loot (which was too uber -- but that[s another discussion) --- like WoW the best loot was generally quested not dropped (ignoring raiding because there still isn't any in VG ;p).

Futhermore there was too much mediocre drops and not enough good drops. There were very, very few EQ like boss mobs that you would want to camp just for the drops. Generally your non-quest upgrades (whether blue or yellow) were minor increases to Dex or Con or what have you because thats all that dropped. But your quest upgrades were usually huge (often heroic, occasionally legendary but rarely worse than a yellow).

I didn't mind the loot so much as to rank it a top ten issue with VG (maybe low top 20?)-- but certainly think more mobs like Hruk would have been a good thing(tm). There's something better about dropping a tough mob and getting a heroic from a lengthy loot table that you or one of your party can use then dropping a tough mob, getting a quest update, running back to the quest guy and getting a heroic from a selection. Which actual brings up another issue -- soulbound heroics as drops from mobs like Hruk another terrible idea. Soulbound raid drops -- okay (as long as there are a few non-BOP drops so a guild can make some money). Soulbound heroics from non-raid mobs? Soulbound spells/recipe/etc? Blergh. Okay just rambling now--must eat.

Anyway Smed if you're reading send me a PM I'll be happy to go into details of what needs to be worked on in VG :-)

[Obtenor]

Or Blizzard.

[Tabris]

Hold on a second... you people are talking about what a piece of shit this game is and then saying that the people who designed it are awesome and talented and need to be hired immediately.

Those two assertions are pretty much in conflict. As an employer, why am I going to hire someone whose last piece of work was for the latest MMOG abortion?

[Jovec]

WoW killed Vanguard before either game was released. The concepts and ideas present in VG were based on EQ1-like attitudes for its target audience and EQ1-like subscription numbers. Brad and SGO had to see how polished and how different WoW was during beta, and even more so after release when WoW subs shot through the roof, validating Blizzard's design decisions, SGO was stuck making a hardcore grindfest that at best could only hope to bring in 500k subs when the rest of the the MMO space had moved on to WoWish gameplay and millions of subs. In essence, SGO was developing new VHS technology as DVDs were flying off the shelf.

I get the sense that every 6 months or so, there was a huge shakeup in the VG design direction, constantly trying to add new concepts that were working in other MMOs, yet never really completely throwing out their original, flawed decisions. Long term projects are long term for a reason, and that reason is not because the project changes direction 10 times along the way, it's because of their scope and the time needed to build all the pieces. The true "vision" in an MMO is being able to see if your concepts are going to work well enough to commit years of development resources to them before they ever see the light of day of a public release.

With an MMO, the core of the game is relatively meaningless. Not to say that the core concpets in your MMO aren't important, but MMOs aren't Tetris, or Chess, or Guitar Hero, where the core design is essentially the entire game. We are essentially doing the same shit in EQ1, EQ2, WoW, VG, etc. The core of an MMO is maybe 10% of the game, the remaining 90% is implementation and polish. Vanguard would probably have been better off biting the bullet, sticking to much of their earlier designs, and implementing those as best they could, trimming quantity for quality as needed to fit their dev cycle. Many of us would be bitching at SGO for giving us a game with "outdated" concepts, but I think there would have a dedicated playerbase, if small, who honestly would enjoy an EQ1.5 game and would be long-term subs.

I'm not trying to absolve SGO management of blame. Given the budgets and timeframes involved, they had no choice but to try to do whatever they could to add mass-market appeal to VG. You cannot justify 200k subs with a $30+ million dollar budget. It seems obvious to me that many aspects of VG were mismanaged. I do think, however, that a polished EQ1.5 released around Spring 2006, when many of the WoW raiding playerbase were bored to tears and even no longer logging in/temporarily canceling would have netted VG enough subs to be a respectable money-maker and a good game for those looking for that playstyle. If the game development was managed properly, and a Spring 2006 release could be done, they would also save maybe $1 million per month is costs too, which makes a low-sub MMO a bit more palatable.

[Kodylan]

Originally Posted by Tabris

Hold on a second... you people are talking about what a piece of shit this game is and then saying that the people who designed it are awesome and talented and need to be hired immediately.

Those two assertions are pretty much in conflict. As an employer, why am I going to hire someone whose last piece of work was for the latest MMOG abortion?

Primarily because the people that worked on the game had to scrap an "abortion" of the game and completely redesign most aspects of it after realizing that what was originally planned wouldn't work. It also had to do with very poor marketing of the game; lots of false promises and inaccuracies were fed to people, both before and after release.

And apparently, according to Genda's blog, these were said by a person that wasn't even in touch with the development of the game. I know several of the people that worked on Vanguard; they're very talented individuals who were unfortunately under the helm of poor leadership that lacked the ability to give their designers direction.

Vanguard is more of a corporate failure than a design failure.

[Twobit Whore]

Looks like the farewells are beginning.

The end ? - Vanguard Spheres: an official affiliate fansite

I just want to take a few minutes to thank all of you that played on Test the past few months.

It was an amazing experience. You are the best. I will always look back on this small but tight-knit community and feel a great sense of pride. We couldn't have gotten as far as we did without you.

I have been around this industry since 2 weeks after EQ1 launch when I packed up and moved my butt across the country to take a job at a little game company called Verant Interactive...

Throughout that whole time I thought EQ1 was tops on my list for the passion players had for the game itself, but you guys redefined my thinking. This community on Test is unique and amazing in so many ways and you all helped more than you could ever know in our attempt at making a fun game.

I am sorry that Vanguard is not what we wanted it to be. We did our best and so did you.

Thanks again for all the great help and I really wish you all the best in finding that "Golden Game" that we are all so desperately looking for as gamers.

[Witoubo]

Originally Posted by Sean

The most amusing thing out of all of this is someone blaming the Unreal Engine.

That almost had me in tears. Tears of hilarity and sadness of the stupidity of the statement.

Since FoH is the home of the bad analogy!

It's like buying a nice car, trying to turn it into a helicopter, then saying the car's poor design is the reason your helicopter crashed.

[Dyscord]

You can have very talented, competent, brilliant people, who do excellent work. But if you don't have quality managment, its all for not. If there's no one there to set the right direction, or to bring all the elements together into a cohesive whole, the greatest minds in the world will be wasted on a doomed project.

It seems like people like the art, they like this, they like that, but overall the game was a bloody mess. Sounds definately like managment problems.

[Sancus]

Originally Posted by Tabris

Hold on a second... you people are talking about what a piece of shit this game is and then saying that the people who designed it are awesome and talented and need to be hired immediately.

Those two assertions are pretty much in conflict. As an employer, why am I going to hire someone whose last piece of work was for the latest MMOG abortion?

Because the failure of a project is far, far more often the responsibility of the management than the workers.

[Braen]

2 of the main reasons business fail... lack of capital and mismanagement.. looks liek Sigil had both.

[Twobit Whore]

I wouldn't call 30+ million a lack of capital. It was misused capital if anything. Which goes back to management.

Sigil has a few star employees, no doubt. It also has a legion of yesmen who couldn't code "Hello world" in basic.

[Itzena]

Originally Posted by OboeFambee

I really feel for those employees. They probably put their hearts and souls into a project with no driver at the wheel. How disappointing it must be for them and their families. People probably moved out here to work on that project, bought houses in the most expensive housing market in the US, and wrapped up their entire lives into something that ultimately ended up in a parking lot firing.

This. Poor buggers.

Also: Brad McQuaid needs to never work in the MMOG industry again - he's crossed the line from naive ineptitude to wilful negligence, and it's cost scores of people their jobs. Jeff Butler, too.

[Braen]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

I wouldn't call 30+ million a lack of capital. It was misused capital if anything. Which goes back to management.

Sigil has a few star employees, no doubt. It also has a legion of yesmen who couldn't code "Hello world" in basic.

maybe not lack, but the mismanagement caused it to be a lack of capital in the long run.. chicken/egg.

[Havelock]

Originally Posted by Tabris

Hold on a second... you people are talking about what a piece of shit this game is and then saying that the people who designed it are awesome and talented and need to be hired immediately.

Those two assertions are pretty much in conflict. As an employer, why am I going to hire someone whose last piece of work was for the latest MMOG abortion?

Randy Moss played for the Raiders.

Sigil hired some very talented and passionate people. Other developers would be wise to swoop in and pick up the newly-available talent, then put those people to good use in a more stable and directed environment.

[Havelock]

Edited at the sincere request of a friend - the ex-Sigil crew has enough to worry about for now.