WoW End Game

[Airclair]

AQ events are pretty cool. The distinct events that make up the WoW end-game (the fights) are well done, and it's plain to see that dreams of EQ have been quote-unquote realized, when you fight Ragnaros, or Razorgore. That's cool. So here's my problem:

Where the hell is the personal advancement?

I'm an ex-uber guilder, Thargor remains an amazingly geared Warrior (played hardcore through BWL up to Nefarion), and I sometimes load him up to stare at his toys, and think about coming back and playing him hardcore again. But what's the point? You raid to get gear (there's no other gain. Faction you say? Leads to gear rewards too. PVP ownage? Leads to more gear rewards.), and that's it. You don't get AA, you don't get Merit XP, you get gear. So let's talk about the gear.

Argument - After a character is outfitted in full Tier 1, he doesn't need anymore gear.

Sidegrade is a term WoW has basically brought to the mainstream. Tier 2 v. Tier 1 isn't filled with upgrades, but little tweaks depending on your class. Items found in AQ don't radically change your ability to do your job, even though a full Tier 1 set v. a full Blue set is night and day. So what's the point?

I'm one of those guys that wants the treadmill. I *like* the treadmill. I don't want to grind to 60 to find that my treadmill means getting more items. I rolled a Warrior (the first time I've ever brought a melee character to max level) because I knew that WoW was gear-centric, and I wanted to play a gear class. I grinded a month of my life away to get my Quel'Serrar, it was fun I guess. I felt good when I got it (actually I screamed and ran around my apartment ), but still ... BWL had a 1H sword just as good, arguably better.

I play FF right now. It's an amazing game, deep, thoughtful, full of quests and missions, things to do at all levels, and even an AA system. Still, it can't compare to WoW's interface, it's ease of play, the joy of instant response. Playing WoW is to enter a world, playing FF is to experience one. There's a difference, and you feel it.

I know what the point of this post is, to see if others feel the same way. Whether it's Hero classes or EQ-style Alternate Advancement, where's my treadmill? Where's my grind? Where's my advancement in the end game?

Anyone else feel this?

-Thargor
War 60
max level: eq, daoc. gimp: every other mmo.

[oknedark]

It's hard to have a constant 'grind' in WoW if you're bleeding edge since the Dev ares trying to catch up to you in terms of raid content, which dates back to release and MC.

Grind rank14 and pray to avoid the rickshaw, though there's definitely a segment of people out there who would kill for Warcraft AA's.

[Cad]

Yes.

The problem is that the highest level blues in the game are like ilvl 70 or so. The tier 1 epics are equivalent to in ilvl 100 or so blue. The tier "2" epics are only 10 ilvls above the tier 1's, and the stat points are stupidly assigned in both cases, so the 10 ilvls doesn't make much of an upgrade. Once you go blue->purple, the upgrades are sparse.

Thats the way it works right now, AQ are mostly utility sets or cross-role sets rather than upgrades in any significant way, aside from better melee weapons (of course).

[Dantre]

It's not a symptom of just WoW

This is a problem with the current state of MMORPGs

Most progression based systems run into this same roadblock - one could say even real life faces the same issue. Work your ass off to get a top job, buy all the toys/loot you want, build your stats, work faction with relationships - you'll still eventually get bored and look for alternative activities.

Difference is in MMORPGs you run out of alternatives much faster.

Don't have an answer as to how to fix it - even the game I felt avoided this pitfall (UO) went down the same path.

[Chaotic]

Hell yea i'd kill for WoW AA's. I quit 3 months ago when I hit exalted in all bg's and said fuck it to the Shaman rank gear, because a bigger manapool and hp bar does NOT INTEREST ME. I know some people disagree with me here, but i'd take a nice mix of str/agi with some sta/int rather then +30int/sta on every piece of gear. (Which is basically what shaman pvp gear is) end rant.

That being said, I rolled a rogue on one of the new servers, but it's like jerking off to pass time - unfulfilling and dirty. I'll totally cancel soon as I save my money waiting for something to do.

[Mkopec1]

Not the AA thread again, sigh....

I will just add that a sort of EQ AA system might just appease the casual players and keep them from bitching so much. Since they would all have things to do other than the empty PvP grind or Raiding...

More options in games like these is always a good thing.

shit, even a LDON style addition would be kick ass. some instanced dungeons with concrete goals with points awarded upon completing said tasks. Then points can be spent on variety of gear, yes even Epics that casuals could get their hands on with a lengthy grind.

[Szlia]

Going from full MC gear to full BWL gear IS a significative gain in power though so the problem, which is real, is a little more complicated. Giving a single set of epic armor per class and per tier reduces the customization of the character which is in oposition with the idea of talent trees. If you and the item designer do not see your class the same way, you are basicaly screwed. Plus, going from a tier to the next, stats are shuffled around, so each item upgrade is almost never a clear one, so even if the total ends up being a significant upgrade, each new item gained gives a mixed feeling. So you got objectively more powerful but after saying "bah" 10 times instead of "yeah!" 10 times. Usualy, end gamers don't play to say "bah", they play to say "yeah!".

[Cybsled]

Really really hard class quests would be a good start I think. Harder then the AQ scepter quest ;p

[Mkopec1]

Originally Posted by Cybsled

Really really hard class quests would be a good start I think. Harder then the AQ scepter quest ;p

Yeah, like the EQ epic quests would be sweet.

[Cad]

Multi-role classes (warrior, druid, priest, paladin, shaman) would benefit greatly from their set items having a "use:" function that switched them to the other role. You did wonderfully with Benediction/Anathema. Do this for all the other items as well, and you have a winner.

I'll even accept a retroactive addition to prophecy/cenarion/etc as penance for not doing this in the first place.

[Praetor]

The "BWL doesn't have upgrades from MC" argument needs to be taken out back and shot. Yes, they are upgrades. Yes, they are significant. Especially with the caster t2 sets being reworked so that they're pretty damn good now.

BWL-->AQ is more of a sidegrade, but that's intentional, and it's good for the game and will add some more itemization depth and allow for more customization and different approaches to certain character classes that just weren't possible when one particular class archtypes had epic itemization of any sort.

As for a grind, yeah, I'm really not sure it's possible to do pure item-based progression indefinitely. You can view quested enchants as being sort of like AAs -- my character effectively has an innate +33 to healing that yours does not because I spent a lot of time in Z'G -- but on a very, very limited scale. WoW tries to be all things to all people, but it's funny, it really ends up not offering much for the hardcore player, the wonderful "casual vs. hardcore" debates aside.

I've played more WoW in the past 10 days than I have since sometime back in late 2004 when I was leveling to 60. Why? Because I have something to fill my time, for once -- I can grab some friends and try to find the most efficient spot to farm certain resources to work towards opening the gates. It's not pure character advancement by any means, but I'm making tangible progress towards a finite goal that will offer me something that I really want (new zones).

It always boggles my mind when I read about people whose lives were ruined by WoW (testimonials like "Ugh, my roommate, he plays 16 hours a day and orders x-large pizzas and his mom drops off cases of Mountain Dew and he never showers and it's horrible."). My reaction, invariably, is, "What the hell is that guy finding to DO for that many hours each week?" I couldn't play WoW for 60 hours a week even if I were an unemployed bum -- there just wouldn't be anything to do. The so-called "hardcore" raiding game occupies roughly 8 hours of my time each week, with another 2-3 sprinkled in there for worldspawns. The rest of my online time is spent more just bullshitting on Vent and in guildchat with guildmates whose company I enjoy than actually playing an MMO as such.

[Airclair]

@Dantre: I don't agree. As I tried to note when I brought up EQ and FF AA systems, I don't think it's a symptom of all MMOs. Other MMOs have non-item grinds at their end game, which serves a differentiator at the high level. Which leads me to Mkopec's first comment.

I think the reason that WoW doesn't have AA points is specifically to appease the casual player. The reason is that in EQ if you grind away for a month or three and hit max level (75? whatever), you're still nowhere near your fellow 75ers. Instead you're missing the 150+ AA that is required by all uber guilds to be competitive. So casuals that hit 60 in WoW feel a true accomplishment, rather than the feeling that they hit the halfway mark in a seemingly endless grind.

Finally Tier 1 v. Tier 2. I agree there's a difference, but it's splashy, it's not truly noticeable. As a Warrior I could feel the tanking difference as I got more Wrath (I think I ended up with 4 pieces), and yes the 5 piece bonus is amazing. That said, where's the beef? I could tank BWL in Might + other competitive pre-BWL gear and not feel pinched on HP as a Tauren with an eye for competitive pre-BWL gear.

Here's the real question, if items are your advancement, when will it become necessary to be outfitted in the previous zone's gear to advance. In other words, where's my bane weapons? Where's my class epic. Is the Quel'Serrar DM camp really the best thing they can come up with for epic? I did the Enchanter epic in EQ and let me say, THAT is epic gentlemen. I killed two Gods and travelled to every plane in existence at the time. I also delved deep into dungeons I hadn't been to in forever (The Hole for instance), and had to solo all sorts of dangers first.

New zones are all well and good, and world events are nifty (if little more than distractions) but where's the advancement? Where's the differentiation necessary to keep people pushing their 60s forward? Shiny swords and crazy armor graphics wont' do it every time.

-thargor

[Mkopec1]

Thats the problem with basing the entire advancement path around gear. And especially trying to keep PvP balanced at the same time. eventually the house will come crubling down in the PvP sector, or PvE will start to suck because of sidegrades.

[Saban]

FFXI is garbage, when they triple the experience rate, give me a call.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Hi2u AA thread v192.7

IBPage200

HEY WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT IF THEY WOULD RELEASE AN ORIGINAL NO EXPANSIONS EQ SERVER? THAT WOULD BE TOTALLY COOL.

As a side note, I think what you people really need to do is remember how to enjoy a game for the simple sake of playing it. I'm all for progression gear and skill wise, but for fucks sake, if 'progression' is all you care about get someone to write a mod that fills your screen with a hundred meaningless progress bars and whenever one fills up, you're allowed to loot up to 2 silver of your next kill which you can put towards buying the herbs to get potions and librams.

I've probably logged over 500 days played in CounterStrike, still waiting to unlock the new uber rifle that gives me that competative edge.