WoW PvP - the outlook is dim

Ossoi · 08-26-2005, 09:35 PM

I saw this interview with one of the WoW producers over at PC Zone and was pretty disappointed with the dudes response when asked about PvP :

"How about Alliance and Horde actually fighting for control of the normal contested zones in the world - will that ever happen?

Shane Dabiri: Our focus in PvP is on making the Battlegrounds the focal point for player-versus-player conflict. PvP is a big part of the game, and having Battlegrounds dedicated exclusively to PvP gameplay lets us create really interesting scenarios that we otherwise couldn't do. Normal zones aren't well suited to the type of back-and-forth battles for control that we see in Battlegrounds. If you want to battle the Horde of Alliance for supremacy of a zone, we recommend you hop down to Alterac Valley, Warsong Gulch, or (in a few weeks) Arathi Basin."

I think its fair to say that Battlegrounds to date have been a pretty huge disappointment, the list of bugs and problems is too long to list - just /who warsong 51-60 at peak hours and there's your answer to the longetivity of BG's.

Hence I don't understand why Blizzard think instanced PvP is the future, newsflash does because no other MMO has had instanced PvP before doesn't make it a good idea. Once arathi is released, it will be fun for a few weeks then the exploits will start getting posted and a month later nobody will be playing it. This release one BG every 4-6months idea is stupid, it's like Valve releasing CS:Source with one playable map just sheer idiocy.

I know this board is primarily concerned with Raid content, but if Blizzard shelved battlegrounds surely that would free up resources to pump out the raid content quicker, as surely designing something on the scale of AV takes just as much time as designing a raid dungeon.

As for PvP, well that would still take some effort to fix, but most of the resources are already in place. It's no coincidence that Felwood is one of the best spots for group pvp right now, because farming consumables makes it worthwhile to go there hence there'll always be members of the opposite faction to fight as you gather the tubers and stuff.

Give level 60's incentive to go to zones like WPL and EPL and give them something to fight over. You have cool areas like Hearthglen and Tyrs Hand that nobody other than farmers ever go to! Just make the mobs drop items that can be turned in for consumables, the more you turn in the better the consumable you get eg [adds holy damage to your melee attacks for 30 mins,] turn those zones into populated areas so that groups have to fight for control of the zone..add a Scarlet Convoy that travels from Hearthglen to Tyrs Hand, that can be ambushed by players and sets off at regular intervals and drops more consumables/decentish loot so that players can fight eachother over that convoy - the ideas are endless.

If anyone who considers themself a PvPer is going to keep playing WoW, there has to be more real-world group PvP, its that simple.

Kolle · 08-26-2005, 09:51 PM

The only way I'd like world pvp for control or anything like that is if WoW was a pure pvp game. No quests, mobs, lvl'ing up...no pve game period. It would be much more enjoyable that way.

Battlegrounds are fun. I like them. Perfect? Bug-free? No, but I still have fun.

If you put these kind of battles into the open world anytime, anywhere...then it would be nothing but a big mess. It's bad enough in the more controlled environments of BGs that things can be quite unfair (AV starting with a 40 vs 20 or something) but it would be even worse in the open world. Anyone want to imagine what a server would be like with 5000 alliance vs 1000 horde?

Digo · 08-26-2005, 09:52 PM

Realm forums are the best kind of pvp.

whaerf · 08-26-2005, 09:58 PM

Hmmm, on my server WSG is typically pretty busy, although I admit I can't see someone logging in consistantly for a year just to do that. Alterac seems to be too big a time investment or something, it's not catching on.

I look at PvP as something I can do if I don't have time for, or I'm burnt out on, PvE content. From that perspective, despite the incessant bitching about it, the PvP portion of WoW is serving some purpose. I'm not sure if that was the intended purpose or not.

I think those signing up for WoW just for PvP are likely disappointed though.

Mist · 08-26-2005, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whaerf

Hmmm, on my server WSG is typically pretty busy, although I admit I can't see someone logging in consistantly for a year just to do that. Alterac seems to be too big a time investment or something, it's not catching on.

I look at PvP as something I can do if I don't have time for, or I'm burnt out on, PvE content. From that perspective, despite the incessant bitching about it, the PvP portion of WoW is serving some purpose. I'm not sure if that was the intended purpose or not.

I think those signing up for WoW just for PvP are likely disappointed though.

Which is ridiculous, because half the servers are supposedly PvP servers. Obviously the playerbase of this game wants PvP, and yet BGs are empty on a lot of servers. The only reason AV is run on my server is not for PvP, but for arranged honor/rep farming.

Personally, I signed up for WORLD of WARcraft. Not Instances of the-ocassional-skirmish-craft.

kasey · 08-26-2005, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digo

Realm forums are the best kind of pvp.

so true, without being able to talk to your opponent and not being able to harm your opponent and no existant death penalty pvp is totally meaningless to a point where a player doesnt care if he dies in pvp anymore.The other day i had one dude just running back from GY over and over and refusing to leave the area because PVP WAS MEANINGLESS

Glaive · 08-26-2005, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mist-Warsong

Which is ridiculous, because half the servers are supposedly PvP servers. Obviously the playerbase of this game wants PvP, and yet BGs are empty on a lot of servers. The only reason AV is run on my server is not for PvP, but for arranged honor/rep farming.

Personally, I signed up for WORLD of WARcraft. Not Instances of the-ocassional-skirmish-craft.

I personally think battlegrounds are a nifty idea, but if they're the primary form of PVP then it definitely kinda renders the idea of a PVP server null and void. I don't know what the potential complications would be, but I really like the idea of fighting for control of contested areas in some capacity (yay for dynamic content).

Mainly, though, I wanted to post simply to mention that I think you are the first person I can remember seeing spell "ridiculous" correctly on the Intarweb.

Keep up the good work.

Mist · 08-27-2005, 12:06 AM

I can thank an old GM for that.

Controlling contested areas wouldn't really work very well, but putting one pathetic little capturable structure in each contested zone that just stands there going 'Hi, I'm here and owned by guild who's tabard emblem flys on my room' would be a nice little addition.

Magic Juan · 08-27-2005, 12:14 AM

WoW has and will probably always be a MMORPG on Easy Mode. So of course the Devs intend on pushing instanced zones because that's the way the majority of WoW players want it. If they want to PvE, they do it, if they want some PvP action they go for. Basically part-time PvPers or weekend warriors.

Hopefully instanced zoning will be a thing of the past in Vanguard, because the watering down of any type of challenge or sense of accomplishment are void in WoW with this type of private dungeons for you and your buddies.

Who cares if people kill said uber mob in WoW because everything is pre-set for you. No surprises, you log on and go your merry way to defeat your own personal "uber mob". /yawn

So glad EQ1 was never like that, because all those fond memories would have never existed, even the times when we did lose races or died to an uber mob and that mob was taken from us while we were recovering our corpses. It was fun non-the-less because it brought lore and life to a community that only the players themselves could create. I know people still talk about, the good, the bad, and the ugly of thier server's history in EQ1 very fondly. But can that be said about the new EQ-Lite clones?

Sadly only the true Vets of EQ1 would ever know the feeling of accomplishment and success that THEY brought to the legend and lore of thier given servers. I dare to say that even Furor or Tigole themselves would not be where they are now if EQ1 had private instanced zones. Because who would care after the first kill, because even if the mob was almost impossible to kill, there was no risk or challenge outside of the AI of the mob to stump the players. Even in EQ there was "PvP" action in that rich PvE environment. No private zones added risk of losing to other more moviated players, it was not just you against the AI. It was you versus whoever got in your way of your goals.

That's the reason I always laugh when someone calls another a carebear because he/she perfers PvE over PvP. Any idiot can PvP in a MMORPG and be somewhat successful in it, but it takes alot skill and talent to gather a force of players and be successful in a PvE rich game like EQ.

Instanced zones in a PvE environment equates to boring and almost meaningless grinding and farming after awhile. Kind of like what Molten Core is now. And Blizzard wants to incorporate that into its PvP game. Have to get use to it because WoW and instanced zones are here to stay.

Mkopec1 · 08-27-2005, 12:21 AM

Granted they need to fix some shit in the previous battlegrounds, overall I find them to be great PvP experiences. I especially like AV. When you get a good coordinated fight going its a badass PvP experience.

I really feel bad for you guys which cannot enjoy AV because your server pop is skewed. I just got done with my 5th win today.

I do not see a dim future for WoW PvP, IMO its a blast so far.

The only fear i have is when they introduce more and more of these battlegrounds, the old ones wont be queue'ing up anymore.

Zierain · 08-27-2005, 12:21 AM

I'd really like to see an single large scale area (expansion type size maybe) with all out PvP.

Not instanced, like the BS we see in AV. But constantly up.

basically, the same thing as the Frontiers from DAoC.

It's just plain dumb that everyone that wants to do a BG has to queue up around the same time. It causes more hassle.

But anyways, it would be cool to just be able to enter this large scale area. Basically have territories to control, and a single map showing which side has which territory. Expecially if it was persistant. IE Horde takes one area, and its outlying forts, and its thiers until Alliance gets enough to come and take it back.

Like DAoC or not, if you played the PvP in that game, it was highly enjoyable. The best PvP in a fantasy type RPG I know of really. /shrug.

Of course I know problems that DAoC that I would like to make sure are addressed. But most that I can think of off the top of my head already have been (Mass CC problems being one).

I just really think that setups like AV will not ever work. No matter how many players you have.

The best way is to have an always open area, that as many people that want to can enter at anytime. It's just how it works. a group of 5 alliance go in, start attacking territories, few horde trickle in, few more alliance, and pretty soon you have a large scale fights.

When you ahve to wait in a queue for the numbers, it just doesnt happen unless its setup beforehand. Thats not fun imho.

Skars · 08-27-2005, 12:27 AM

For me it was always dim. There should be some sort of "hardcore" PVP server or something.

I bought the game because it was World of WARCRAFT, instanced pvp is the antithesis of a World of War.

Kayiznaru · 08-27-2005, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zierain

I'd really like to see an single large scale area (expansion type size maybe) with all out PvP.

Not instanced, like the BS we see in AV. But constantly up.

basically, the same thing as the Frontiers from DAoC.

It's just plain dumb that everyone that wants to do a BG has to queue up around the same time. It causes more hassle.

But anyways, it would be cool to just be able to enter this large scale area. Basically have territories to control, and a single map showing which side has which territory. Expecially if it was persistant. IE Horde takes one area, and its outlying forts, and its thiers until Alliance gets enough to come and take it back.

Like DAoC or not, if you played the PvP in that game, it was highly enjoyable. The best PvP in a fantasy type RPG I know of really. /shrug.

Of course I know problems that DAoC that I would like to make sure are addressed. But most that I can think of off the top of my head already have been (Mass CC problems being one).

I just really think that setups like AV will not ever work. No matter how many players you have.

The best way is to have an always open area, that as many people that want to can enter at anytime. It's just how it works. a group of 5 alliance go in, start attacking territories, few horde trickle in, few more alliance, and pretty soon you have a large scale fights.

When you ahve to wait in a queue for the numbers, it just doesnt happen unless its setup beforehand. Thats not fun imho.

Hell, I'd even kill for one of DAoC's lower level BGs. I wasted many an hour away in Thid attacking the central keep, defending the same keep, playing hit-and-run, harassing portal keeps, etc. That shit is fun.

But all in all, I agree. Do away with this limited instance size BS. Create a BG with a certain level cap, no player size constraints, and let people go nuts.

Then again, as TM/SS has always shown, WoW's servers can be very sketchy when it comes to all out mass PvP...

EDIT: Not to mention, if I want to play some CTF, I have Team Fortress for that reason. Screw Warsong Gulch.

Deris · 08-27-2005, 01:28 AM

DAOC's PvP was top notch.

A Realm that if controlled gave the controlling side a small buff - say 1% crit to melee, 1% crit to spells, +4 mana regen/5 2hp regen/5 would be nice. Or something similar to Aura of Command in AV..

Talzar · 08-27-2005, 01:38 AM

The problem with non-instanced PvP is that almost always the side with higher numbers will be the winner. I played DAoC and on my server Albion ountnumbered the other realms 2:1. If they wanted they could zerg just about anything and be the winner. The same is true on my server, where the Alliance outnumbers the Horde (not 2:1, but still enough to win). Back before the BGs were out all PvP occurred in TM / SS. I say TM / SS, but I really should just say TM. The reason being, Horde were always outnumbered and losing and therefore stuck hiding by their guards scraping what little kills they could muster.

The same thing happens in AV when it comes up (usually no more than 2-4 times a week). It's usually 40 vs 40 for about 6 hours or so (depending on how early in the day it came up) until it gets late and the Horde have to start logging off, since their population isn't high enough to keep having people to replace the guys logging off, the Alliance inevitibly wins once it's down to 40 vs 20 around 2 am.

I know well enough that there's some other players on Blackhand that can vouch that what I said is mostly true. It's fun on the rare occasions that the underpopulated side manages to get enough people and organization to gain some territory and fight a good fight, but eventually it always falls back to the higher populated side winning in the end.

08-26-2005, 09:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
Ossoi Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 526 -10 Internets	WoW PvP - the outlook is dim I saw this interview with one of the WoW producers over at PC Zone and was pretty disappointed with the dudes response when asked about PvP : "How about Alliance and Horde actually fighting for control of the normal contested zones in the world - will that ever happen? Shane Dabiri: Our focus in PvP is on making the Battlegrounds the focal point for player-versus-player conflict. PvP is a big part of the game, and having Battlegrounds dedicated exclusively to PvP gameplay lets us create really interesting scenarios that we otherwise couldn't do. Normal zones aren't well suited to the type of back-and-forth battles for control that we see in Battlegrounds. If you want to battle the Horde of Alliance for supremacy of a zone, we recommend you hop down to Alterac Valley, Warsong Gulch, or (in a few weeks) Arathi Basin." I think its fair to say that Battlegrounds to date have been a pretty huge disappointment, the list of bugs and problems is too long to list - just /who warsong 51-60 at peak hours and there's your answer to the longetivity of BG's. Hence I don't understand why Blizzard think instanced PvP is the future, newsflash does because no other MMO has had instanced PvP before doesn't make it a good idea. Once arathi is released, it will be fun for a few weeks then the exploits will start getting posted and a month later nobody will be playing it. This release one BG every 4-6months idea is stupid, it's like Valve releasing CS:Source with one playable map just sheer idiocy. I know this board is primarily concerned with Raid content, but if Blizzard shelved battlegrounds surely that would free up resources to pump out the raid content quicker, as surely designing something on the scale of AV takes just as much time as designing a raid dungeon. As for PvP, well that would still take some effort to fix, but most of the resources are already in place. It's no coincidence that Felwood is one of the best spots for group pvp right now, because farming consumables makes it worthwhile to go there hence there'll always be members of the opposite faction to fight as you gather the tubers and stuff. Give level 60's incentive to go to zones like WPL and EPL and give them something to fight over. You have cool areas like Hearthglen and Tyrs Hand that nobody other than farmers ever go to! Just make the mobs drop items that can be turned in for consumables, the more you turn in the better the consumable you get eg [adds holy damage to your melee attacks for 30 mins,] turn those zones into populated areas so that groups have to fight for control of the zone..add a Scarlet Convoy that travels from Hearthglen to Tyrs Hand, that can be ambushed by players and sets off at regular intervals and drops more consumables/decentish loot so that players can fight eachother over that convoy - the ideas are endless. If anyone who considers themself a PvPer is going to keep playing WoW, there has to be more real-world group PvP, its that simple.

08-26-2005, 09:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
Digo Ad Hoc Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: orange county Posts: 1,210 +2 Internets	Realm forums are the best kind of pvp. __________________ Digo \| Casual

08-27-2005, 12:21 AM	#10 (permalink)
Mkopec1 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 5,114	Granted they need to fix some shit in the previous battlegrounds, overall I find them to be great PvP experiences. I especially like AV. When you get a good coordinated fight going its a badass PvP experience. I really feel bad for you guys which cannot enjoy AV because your server pop is skewed. I just got done with my 5th win today. I do not see a dim future for WoW PvP, IMO its a blast so far. The only fear i have is when they introduce more and more of these battlegrounds, the old ones wont be queue'ing up anymore. __________________ When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty. I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.

08-27-2005, 12:21 AM	#11 (permalink)
Zierain Transcended - Blackhand Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Here Posts: 281 -1 Internets	I'd really like to see an single large scale area (expansion type size maybe) with all out PvP. Not instanced, like the BS we see in AV. But constantly up. basically, the same thing as the Frontiers from DAoC. It's just plain dumb that everyone that wants to do a BG has to queue up around the same time. It causes more hassle. But anyways, it would be cool to just be able to enter this large scale area. Basically have territories to control, and a single map showing which side has which territory. Expecially if it was persistant. IE Horde takes one area, and its outlying forts, and its thiers until Alliance gets enough to come and take it back. Like DAoC or not, if you played the PvP in that game, it was highly enjoyable. The best PvP in a fantasy type RPG I know of really. /shrug. Of course I know problems that DAoC that I would like to make sure are addressed. But most that I can think of off the top of my head already have been (Mass CC problems being one). I just really think that setups like AV will not ever work. No matter how many players you have. The best way is to have an always open area, that as many people that want to can enter at anytime. It's just how it works. a group of 5 alliance go in, start attacking territories, few horde trickle in, few more alliance, and pretty soon you have a large scale fights. When you ahve to wait in a queue for the numbers, it just doesnt happen unless its setup beforehand. Thats not fun imho. __________________ Sersly - Nothing Personal http://www.nothingpersonal-guild.com

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08-26-2005, 09:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
Kolle Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,879 -25 Internets	The only way I'd like world pvp for control or anything like that is if WoW was a pure pvp game. No quests, mobs, lvl'ing up...no pve game period. It would be much more enjoyable that way. Battlegrounds are fun. I like them. Perfect? Bug-free? No, but I still have fun. If you put these kind of battles into the open world anytime, anywhere...then it would be nothing but a big mess. It's bad enough in the more controlled environments of BGs that things can be quite unfair (AV starting with a 40 vs 20 or something) but it would be even worse in the open world. Anyone want to imagine what a server would be like with 5000 alliance vs 1000 horde?

08-26-2005, 09:58 PM	#4 (permalink)
whaerf huh? Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 67 +0 Internets	Hmmm, on my server WSG is typically pretty busy, although I admit I can't see someone logging in consistantly for a year just to do that. Alterac seems to be too big a time investment or something, it's not catching on. I look at PvP as something I can do if I don't have time for, or I'm burnt out on, PvE content. From that perspective, despite the incessant bitching about it, the PvP portion of WoW is serving some purpose. I'm not sure if that was the intended purpose or not. I think those signing up for WoW just for PvP are likely disappointed though.

08-27-2005, 12:06 AM	#8 (permalink)
Mist Extremely Busy DPS Provider Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,388 -56 Internets	I can thank an old GM for that. Controlling contested areas wouldn't really work very well, but putting one pathetic little capturable structure in each contested zone that just stands there going 'Hi, I'm here and owned by guild who's tabard emblem flys on my room' would be a nice little addition.

08-27-2005, 12:14 AM	#9 (permalink)
Magic Juan Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 126 +0 Internets	WoW has and will probably always be a MMORPG on Easy Mode. So of course the Devs intend on pushing instanced zones because that's the way the majority of WoW players want it. If they want to PvE, they do it, if they want some PvP action they go for. Basically part-time PvPers or weekend warriors. Hopefully instanced zoning will be a thing of the past in Vanguard, because the watering down of any type of challenge or sense of accomplishment are void in WoW with this type of private dungeons for you and your buddies. Who cares if people kill said uber mob in WoW because everything is pre-set for you. No surprises, you log on and go your merry way to defeat your own personal "uber mob". /yawn So glad EQ1 was never like that, because all those fond memories would have never existed, even the times when we did lose races or died to an uber mob and that mob was taken from us while we were recovering our corpses. It was fun non-the-less because it brought lore and life to a community that only the players themselves could create. I know people still talk about, the good, the bad, and the ugly of thier server's history in EQ1 very fondly. But can that be said about the new EQ-Lite clones? Sadly only the true Vets of EQ1 would ever know the feeling of accomplishment and success that THEY brought to the legend and lore of thier given servers. I dare to say that even Furor or Tigole themselves would not be where they are now if EQ1 had private instanced zones. Because who would care after the first kill, because even if the mob was almost impossible to kill, there was no risk or challenge outside of the AI of the mob to stump the players. Even in EQ there was "PvP" action in that rich PvE environment. No private zones added risk of losing to other more moviated players, it was not just you against the AI. It was you versus whoever got in your way of your goals. That's the reason I always laugh when someone calls another a carebear because he/she perfers PvE over PvP. Any idiot can PvP in a MMORPG and be somewhat successful in it, but it takes alot skill and talent to gather a force of players and be successful in a PvE rich game like EQ. Instanced zones in a PvE environment equates to boring and almost meaningless grinding and farming after awhile. Kind of like what Molten Core is now. And Blizzard wants to incorporate that into its PvP game. Have to get use to it because WoW and instanced zones are here to stay.

08-27-2005, 12:27 AM	#12 (permalink)
Skars Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 352 +0 Internets	For me it was always dim. There should be some sort of "hardcore" PVP server or something. I bought the game because it was World of WARCRAFT, instanced pvp is the antithesis of a World of War.

08-27-2005, 01:28 AM	#14 (permalink)
Deris Banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 1,628 -7 Internets	DAOC's PvP was top notch. A Realm that if controlled gave the controlling side a small buff - say 1% crit to melee, 1% crit to spells, +4 mana regen/5 2hp regen/5 would be nice. Or something similar to Aura of Command in AV..

08-27-2005, 01:38 AM	#15 (permalink)
Talzar Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 109 -4 Internets	The problem with non-instanced PvP is that almost always the side with higher numbers will be the winner. I played DAoC and on my server Albion ountnumbered the other realms 2:1. If they wanted they could zerg just about anything and be the winner. The same is true on my server, where the Alliance outnumbers the Horde (not 2:1, but still enough to win). Back before the BGs were out all PvP occurred in TM / SS. I say TM / SS, but I really should just say TM. The reason being, Horde were always outnumbered and losing and therefore stuck hiding by their guards scraping what little kills they could muster. The same thing happens in AV when it comes up (usually no more than 2-4 times a week). It's usually 40 vs 40 for about 6 hours or so (depending on how early in the day it came up) until it gets late and the Horde have to start logging off, since their population isn't high enough to keep having people to replace the guys logging off, the Alliance inevitibly wins once it's down to 40 vs 20 around 2 am. I know well enough that there's some other players on Blackhand that can vouch that what I said is mostly true. It's fun on the rare occasions that the underpopulated side manages to get enough people and organization to gain some territory and fight a good fight, but eventually it always falls back to the higher populated side winning in the end.