Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard?

[Dashal]

Originally Posted by Druixx

How do you figure?

World of Warcraft
$80 million dev budget (rumored) / 1.5 million subscribers (March 17, 2005; see Blizzard Entertainment - Press Release) = $53.33 dev dollars per sub @ 3 months

vs.

Vanguard
$30 million dev budget = 150,000 subscribers at best (no press releases, but is in the ballpark if not much less) = $200 dev dollars per sub @ 6+ weeks

Which company is inefficient??

Vanguard would have to pull ~515,000 more subs out of their ass to match that pace. We won't even TALK about when WoW was released worldwide.

He argued budget didnt matter. WoW cost more than any other MMO by a huge margin in most cases, thus being inefficient by his logic.

[Geaux]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

How massive and detailed they are -- I've personally never seen dungeons with such potential in terms of gameplay coupled with their sheer size and the awesome artwork. They are some of the last dungeons we made and the artists really had the tools down pat. And with the designers tools also that much more mature, what they will be able to do and are already starting to do in these dungeons is pretty mind blowing. I was talking with Tagad a while ago who is populating the City of Brass and it's going to be crazy He did some really cool dungeons in Velious with the old EQ 1 tools -- I can't wait to see what he and other designers will be doing in the raid dungeons in Vanguard.

so in a 1000 post thread talking about how the hype was one of the reasons VG flopped you begin to outrageously hype raid content? thats just asking for it...

[Stevon]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

I don't have a solid date, but I know it's already being worked on. Basically, as fast as we can, but we also need to make sure the low and mid levels are a bit more solid too. The majority of the design team is cleaning things up and balancing and making the game even more fun, with the minority working on new content including raid content. This will change soon, however, and the majority will be working on high level and raid content.

Another thing that comes to mind Brad is what happened to bringing back the things that made EQ great? And I'm not talking about the grind ;D

I'd have to say that to this day nothing stands out in my mind as an exceptional MMO experience like Velious. Nothing comes close. The dungeons. The bosses. The faction system that really really brought you into the story. The environment design. The scripted encounters (the 10 ring quest series is still second to none in my book). This is the expansion that all others should be measured against in my opinion.

Where is that in Vanguard? Was there something in that design period that just can't be captured again? What those of us who watched Vanguard from very early on were anticipating it was this. Well none of it materialized, at least that anyone knows of.

I think that this is where a lot of the anger stems from. Many of us were very passionate about a return to those days and were convinced, mainly from promises made by you in various forums, that that kind of thing was on it's way back... minus the "tedium". The rest of the angst comes from the other issues raised here in other posts.

[teneran]

Originally Posted by Stevon

2. The player should be able to play, productively, based on the players schedule not everyone elses. Here's where Vanguard has a real problem. First, most players will form certain group attachments at some point (unless they simply hate or ineffective at dealing with others). In Vanguard if you end up falling behind your "friends" it's very likely you will find it more and more difficult to find groups. And unfortunately grouping is THE most effective way to advance, bar none. The solution here is obvious, the game needs to provide more solo friendly content, if for nothing else than to help those left behind catch up.

3. Punishment is not motivating. Vanguard takes punishment to the next level. If you are failing an encounter, so solo or duo, and you want to escape... good luck. Running away is rarely an option as pretty much any mob can chase you down. Then where does that leave you? With a corpse recovery (why this is back I'll never understand) and exp loss. And a lot of frustration.

You can solo all the way to 50, on any class. Not saying its optimal (it isn't), or as easy for every class, but you can do it. What else do you want Sigil to provide? The game is group oriented for sure but you CAN solo anytime you want to, or don't feel like or have the time to group.

Punishment to the next level? Oh please, can you be a bit more dramatic? If you die, sure, you have a CR but as long as you recover your body without the altar you get very close to 100% of that XP back. To date I've leveled a rogue to 18 and disciple to 26 and sum total, I'm had to altar my corpse maybe 8 times. Even then, i only lost 10% each time, which while it stung, wasn't in the grand scheme of things that bad. Maybe I lost 30ish minutes of time to gain that XP back each time.

Now, if you want to talk about punishment, let's talk about EQ1. When I first leveled in that game, especially early on, when I died i had in some cases a CR that could take the better part of an hour (hi melee that couldn't bind) and lost quite a bit of XP, like half a night's worth or more. That was punishment.

The problem is you want to be able to play solo, super casual and be on the same level of people who play more, have more friends, whatever. Sorry, doesn't work that way. Sure, I'd like to look like a swimsuit model but I don't starve myself and workout 4 hours a day .... but I guess by your logic i can bitch about it.

You really should just play WoW. And I don't mean that as a put down on WoW but that's the type of game you want, where the only reason you group is instances or raids, and otherwise its all solo friendly and very casual.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Dashal

He argued budget didnt matter. WoW cost more than any other MMO by a huge margin in most cases, thus being inefficient by his logic.

Budget doesn't matter, it's what you do with the budget given. If WoW had flopped, then you could say they were inefficient.

[Stevon]

Originally Posted by Erronius

I agree with this pretty much. What was being released and spoon-fed to the public was totally different from the reality in Beta. People got pissed when it was realized that Sigil was trying to obfuscate the issue, and the cry of "Just wait until the NDA is lifted" was passed around like a balloon at a Dead show. Then the NDA was lifted and a new round of complaints started up, with the response of "Wait until release, it's still Beta after all!". Then release hit amidst a lot of nay saying, and then people were told to just give VG some more time.

Now, I'm not jumping those people that are playing VG happily, more power to you. But for those of you that do play, and cannot grasp why people refuse to purchase VG, let me try to say this as objectively as possible:

The last year of VG has been drama on top of drama on top of drama. Even with all the beta bs, people were willing to give VG some leeway at release, but VG was, predictably, not as ready as was claimed. Still, people bought VG and braced themselves for a few months of bugs and other issues. Yet, the drama hasn't ceased, now you even have the station pass change and people wishing they hadn't bought VG in the first place. Sigil is planning on a large ad campaign, but seriously, how much of VG's history will that be able to counter? I also predict that something else will pop up within the next 6 months that will re-ignite the debates and drama, it is almost a given. The advertising won't make up for all the problems, it can't, but I still hope it helps out VG...because, imo, it needs all the help it can get (from a sales and reputation standpoint).

IMO the only chance VG had to be a 'huge' success was an awesome release, or to be so awe inspiring that people would leave other games wholesale. Neither happened, and I seriously doubt VG will hit 500k. For Sigils sake, and the sake of those playing VG, I hope I am wrong. But as it stands now, it doesn't seem to have garnered the image of being a "Must play" game as was hoped, and there are simply other games out there that people would rather play. I'm sure I could pay for it, play it, and have at least a modicum of enjoyment over the next year, but there are many other games I can do that in, and they appeal to me more than VG. And that is WITHOUT factoring in the drama, rumors, bugs, vitriol and angst.

"Tanin no fukou wa mitsu no aji" , because I'm getting tired of seeing, and using myself, the term schadenfreude. I'd be lying if I said that didn't factor into this, but unfortunately it does. A lot of people made dire predictions and were flamed for it (especially on the VG forums), but many were correct in a broader sense, if not on actual individual issues as well.

It almost seems like some people expect others to simply give VG a free pass, and to just forget all that has happened and go into VG blindly. Human nature being what it is, I seriously doubt that is going to happen on any large scale, especially when it involves forking money over to a game that has generated the divisions in the gaming community that VG has.

VG was a LOT of fun near the beginning of Beta 3... then the nerf bat hit. Exp was nerfed. Player power and mob power "dps and hps/defense" were raised a LOT. From then on it was down hill. The game went from being very enjoyable (even with the other issues) to being a grind and tedious, just like the worse of EQ. At that point I basically reached 30 I was about 28 at the change) and gave up. It got no better at release, of course, and after 18 or so levels I was done.

[Stevon]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Budget doesn't matter, it's what you do with the budget given.

Exactly. I'm sure LOTRO has a much smaller budget than WoW (but have no facts to back that up) and it seems to be going very well so far. Playstyle aside.

[Seths]

Speaking of Nerd-Rage and Vanguard something I was glad to have left in other games showed its face in VG over the weekend. Some tool was spamming the regionchat on Shidreth for a while Saturday trying to get people to join his Zihurr queen group ( Queen STILL isn't spawning Nino... ). After what must have been close to an hour of the same spiel he resorted to the following...

"Ant Hill group looking for more. We have real live, young, teenage girl in the group. If you join now I will let you into a free ventrilo chat room and you can listen to a teenage girl talking"

...and got apparently a bunch of replies within a minute or two.

I still haven't decided which was more disturbing. The fact that that kind of thing is used to get people to group in open channels, or the fact that it apparently worked.

[Stevon]

Originally Posted by teneran

You can solo all the way to 50, on any class. Not saying its optimal (it isn't), or as easy for every class, but you can do it. What else do you want Sigil to provide? The game is group oriented for sure but you CAN solo anytime you want to, or don't feel like or have the time to group.

Punishment to the next level? Oh please, can you be a bit more dramatic? If you die, sure, you have a CR but as long as you recover your body without the altar you get very close to 100% of that XP back. To date I've leveled a rogue to 18 and disciple to 26 and sum total, I'm had to altar my corpse maybe 8 times. Even then, i only lost 10% each time, which while it stung, wasn't in the grand scheme of things that bad. Maybe I lost 30ish minutes of time to gain that XP back each time.

Now, if you want to talk about punishment, let's talk about EQ1. When I first leveled in that game, especially early on, when I died i had in some cases a CR that could take the better part of an hour (hi melee that couldn't bind) and lost quite a bit of XP, like half a night's worth or more. That was punishment.

The problem is you want to be able to play solo, super casual and be on the same level of people who play more, have more friends, whatever. Sorry, doesn't work that way. Sure, I'd like to look like a swimsuit model but I don't starve myself and workout 4 hours a day .... but I guess by your logic i can bitch about it.

You really should just play WoW. And I don't mean that as a put down on WoW but that's the type of game you want, where the only reason you group is instances or raids, and otherwise its all solo friendly and very casual.

That's the problem. You can solo ANY game to max level, even if it's 2x worse than Vanguard... but who in their right mind would want to? Just because you CAN does not mean it's even remotely enjoyable. And unless you are a highly skilled warlock soloing in Vanguard is not at all appealing.

Lastly solo is not the same as casual, and people need to stop confusing the two.

As for "just go play WoW" you guys are going to do more to kill the game than anything else. Because guess what, that's exactly what people are going to do. Be careful of what you wish for cause you just might get it.

As for my comments regarding keeping up with friends... it's not that I or anyone believe that "play less gain the same" makes sense. However Vanguard feels more like "play less never catch up" without an even greater commitment going forward.

No one want's a return to WoW. That's why we even continue to troll these posts about Vangaurd, even while we're stopped playing. Because some of us hold a thread of hope that there will be changes that make returning viable. It's unlikely but who knows, EQ brought in instanced raids (thank god), so stranger things have happened.

[Vaxxx]

Originally Posted by Stevon

That's the problem. You can solo ANY game to max level, even if it's 2x worse than Vanguard... but who in their right mind would want to? Just because you CAN does not mean it's even remotely enjoyable. And unless you are a highly skilled warlock soloing in Vanguard is not at all appealing.

Lastly solo is not the same as casual, and people need to stop confusing the two.

As for "just go play WoW" you guys are going to do more to kill the game than anything else. Because guess what, that's exactly what people are going to do. Be careful of what you wish for cause you just might get it.

As for my comments regarding keeping up with friends... it's not that I or anyone believe that "play less gain the same" makes sense. However Vanguard feels more like "play less never catch up" without an even greater commitment going forward.

No one want's a return to WoW. That's why we even continue to troll these posts about Vangaurd, even while we're stopped playing. Because some of us hold a thread of hope that there will be changes that make returning viable. It's unlikely but who knows, EQ brought in instanced raids (thank god), so stranger things have happened.

Dude, give it a rest. Vanguard is not WoW, everbody knows that. The game is not based on being able to quickly and easily solo level. You may think thats a bad game mechanic/decision but it's the way the game has been built.

On the flip side, the game is also no completely built upon only grouping to advance. You can easily progress to about level 25 doing almost no grouping and even very little monotonous grinding. What more can people say.

The death penalty is not bad, its a balance between stinging to being almost laughable at time. It only really stings if you are doing dungeons. You are usually doing dungeons to get the best gear. Seems to make sense to me. If you are not doing dungeons then you are doing overland stuff. You die you spend a few minutes running to your body and lose 1% EXP. Oh no the horror. So far 1% EXP usually equates to 2-3 mobs killed.

In terms of gear, yes if you don't have a full group you will not have the best gear. Um okay Vanguard Devs have always stated they really believe in Risk vs Reward. Plus through the 50 levels having the best gear really isn't that important. You honestly think that being outfitted in yellow/orange gear at level 25 is going to make a difference. please.

[Dashal]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Budget doesn't matter, it's what you do with the budget given. If WoW had flopped, then you could say they were inefficient.

If that were true WoW could have done what it did for 17 dollars and 52 cents. Of course budget matters. It's not a guarantee of success, is the point I think you all are trying to make.

[teneran]

Originally Posted by Stevon

That's the problem. You can solo ANY game to max level, even if it's 2x worse than Vanguard... but who in their right mind would want to? Just because you CAN does not mean it's even remotely enjoyable. And unless you are a highly skilled warlock soloing in Vanguard is not at all appealing.

Lastly solo is not the same as casual, and people need to stop confusing the two.

As for "just go play WoW" you guys are going to do more to kill the game than anything else. Because guess what, that's exactly what people are going to do. Be careful of what you wish for cause you just might get it.

As for my comments regarding keeping up with friends... it's not that I or anyone believe that "play less gain the same" makes sense. However Vanguard feels more like "play less never catch up" without an even greater commitment going forward.

No one want's a return to WoW. That's why we even continue to troll these posts about Vangaurd, even while we're stopped playing. Because some of us hold a thread of hope that there will be changes that make returning viable. It's unlikely but who knows, EQ brought in instanced raids (thank god), so stranger things have happened.

Its certainly a matter of balance for sure. Any game can be too much of a grind to where the PITA factor becomes too high, agreed.

Here's the problem .... where that balance point lies is hard for people to agree on. So I guess where I am coming from is I just don't want to see the game drift towards being a WoW clone to boost numbers. I hear you're also not wanting this to happen, we just may disagree on where that line lies.

To be fair, I don't think anything I can say, or attitude I can take, is killing Vanguard. I doubt i have any significant influence with Bard or any of the producers/developers that may read this board. I'm just a normal guy with a point of view.

[Stevon]

Originally Posted by Vaxxx

Dude, give it a rest. Vanguard is not WoW, everbody knows that. The game is not based on being able to quickly and easily solo level. You may think thats a bad game mechanic/decision but it's the way the game has been built.

On the flip side, the game is also no completely built upon only grouping to advance. You can easily progress to about level 25 doing almost no grouping and even very little monotonous grinding. What more can people say.

The death penalty is not bad, its a balance between stinging to being almost laughable at time. It only really stings if you are doing dungeons. You are usually doing dungeons to get the best gear. Seems to make sense to me. If you are not doing dungeons then you are doing overland stuff. You die you spend a few minutes running to your body and lose 1% EXP. Oh no the horror. So far 1% EXP usually equates to 2-3 mobs killed.

In terms of gear, yes if you don't have a full group you will not have the best gear. Um okay Vanguard Devs have always stated they really believe in Risk vs Reward. Plus through the 50 levels having the best gear really isn't that important. You honestly think that being outfitted in yellow/orange gear at level 25 is going to make a difference. please.

Well one thing you say is true. The death penalty isn't bad if you recover your corpse. But that's the rub. If you do anything truely "challenging" then corpse recovery is a real issue. If you chose to forgo recovery then exp loss is significant.

[Stevon]

Originally Posted by teneran

Its certainly a matter of balance for sure. Any game can be too much of a grind to where the PITA factor becomes too high, agreed.

Here's the problem .... where that balance point lies is hard for people to agree on. So I guess where I am coming from is I just don't want to see the game drift towards being a WoW clone to boost numbers. I hear you're also not wanting this to happen, we just may disagree on where that line lies.

To be fair, I don't think anything I can say, or attitude I can take, is killing Vanguard. I doubt i have any significant influence with Bard or any of the producers/developers that may read this board. I'm just a normal guy with a point of view.

I'd agree the line is a big part of it. The problem I think is in taking a grouping first approach. I think people equate that with WoW's problem (problem in that certain people dislike the "effort" aspect of it).

By making the game so favor grouping over solo play (which is NOT synonymous with casual) you risk isolating players due to availability and timing issues. Forcing grouping for raid or group boss encounters makes perfect sense. But making grouping the best advancement mechanism is a problem imo. That's where the main change needs to come.

[Sithro]

I think what Sigil should do now is not try to hype Vanguard right now. They should work on getting the game into a solid state (much like EQII and WoW are, now).

THEN, offer some kind of promotion and give people a free trial to try out Vanguard. At least this way, they'll not hate the game due to bugs, etc.