Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard?

[Ikertxus]

I'll use up this space on your monitors to say that I like Vanguard in its current state, it has been the first game in years that has had me come back to pc gaming, and I want to give a big two thumbs up to the sigil team hoping they stay true to their path and continue making this game fun for us.

PS: some of you guys sound like sigil made this game to fuck you from behind while laughing in the process... cant you see they have spilt passion and hundreds of hours of their life to entertain you? give em a break I say, they know perfectly well whats right and wrong in their game, to me it sounds they bust their asses in fixing it

[Reggie]

Originally Posted by Stevon

Want to know the reason for the rage? We paid for the game AND we had hope that Vanguard might actually be something special, especially after all the hype and visionspeak and undelivered promises. People don't like having their dreams shattered and their 50 bucks wasted.

Btw I'd suggest less novel writing when you post.

Btw, don't quote walls of text verbatim. /protip

Dreams shattered, 50 bucks wasted?? On a fucking MMO?

You sir are in for a rough ride through life.

[Maxxius]

Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara

. . . . More spin . . . . .

I was content to never address this topic again until I read your wall of spin. Now I understand. Despite the fact that WOW sold MILLIONS of copies of TBC in its first month, the reason why VG has sold only a paltry 100kish is because of the message! No more cherrypicked screenshots. No more handpicked released little blogs. No more NDA. People see exactly what they are getting. End result, the wrong message.

You have to be kidding me.

We warned you that the huge size of the world will make traveling a bitch and hence grouping impossible, but you didn't care. We warned you that people just aren't interested in games with death penalties anymore, but you didn't care. We warned you that the unibody models look dumb and hence less appealing to potential subscribers, but you didn't care. We warned you that steep leveling curves will only turn off alot of people, but you didn't care. We warned you not to launch the game so near WOW's TBC launch, but you didn't care. We warned you that the casual player makes up for the large playing force, not the so called "hardcore" and hence your subscriptions will suck if you don't cater to them, but you didn't care. Until now.

Spin is irrelevant since the proof is in the subscriptions. Your outdated, dinosaur laid an egg, not because the wrong message is out there, but because the right message is.

You have a niche game now and nothing more. Any businessman would tell you your only real shot of grabbing a large audience is in the beginning, wow em now not later (pun intended). Your game hasn't and that is it. At best you can continue to keep it as a niche game with possible small yet steady increases, but the window of opportunity is passing you by. And it will pass you by because you are too dam stubborn to listen to the market.

Sorry Brad, the reason is not the wrong message the reason is the product.

[Mithrull]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

I was content to never address this topic again until I read your wall of spin. Now I understand. Despite the fact that WOW sold MILLIONS of copies of TBC in its first month, the reason why VG has sold only a paltry 100kish is because of the message!

"And then there's the fact that we released so close to the WoW expansion. That didn't help either, at least short term. "

I'm sure Brad will lose sleep over the realization that he roused your previously placated ire.

Spin is irrelevant since the proof is in the subscriptions. Your outdated, dinosaur laid an egg, not because the wrong message is out there, but because the right message is.

Looks like they have about 125k subs or thereabouts. Not an egg in my book.

We warned you that people just aren't interested in games with death penalties anymore, but you didn't care.

I'm not aware of a single MMO without a death penatly. They vary in harshness but death penalities are omnipresent. VG's penatly is rather light. Retrieving your corpse nets about a 1.5% loss.

[Maxxius]

No kidding mith, We all friggin warned him about the launch date. Yet he knew best. Just like he knows best about everything. Well if he wants 125kish subs he has it.

Oh and the death penalty I am referring to is a lost experience one, something that game which sold millions doesn't have.

[Asmadai]

If people's posts were more 'this is my opinion' sounding, and less 'i'm speaking for everyone with a Vanguard subscription' sounding, points might get across just a tad easier.

Just a thought.

[Mithrull]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

No kidding mith, We all friggin warned him about the launch date. Yet he knew best. Just like he knows best about everything. Well if he wants 125kish subs he has it.

Oh and the death penalty I am referring to is a lost experience one, something that game which sold millions doesn't have.

Your statement wasn't that he should have expected some impact from releasing near TBC but rather that as of this date, he didn't recognize its impact. Sounds like he does though, no?

[Ham n Cheese]

Originally Posted by Mithrull

"And then there's the fact that we released so close to the WoW expansion. That didn't help either, at least short term. "

I'm sure Brad will lose sleep over the realization that he roused your previously placated ire.



Looks like they have about 125k subs or thereabouts. Not an egg in my book.



I'm not aware of a single MMO without a death penatly. They vary in harshness but death penalities are omnipresent. VG's penatly is rather light. Retrieving your corpse nets about a 1.5% loss.

Few things, the "penalty" in death is having to retrieve your corpse, lost durability from the death and experience. I don't know another game that uses all 3, and I would say if your group couldn't do an area with their gear on that they'll be summoning to the altar for brutal exp loss.

Look at the subs come month 3, when they aren't offering double exp every weekend and people have stopped giving them the benefit of the doubt (like I did).

[woqqqa]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

If people's posts were more 'this is my opinion' sounding, and less 'i'm speaking for everyone with a Vanguard subscription' sounding, points might get across just a tad easier.

Just a thought.

That seems to be a problem on MMO forums in general. He's dealing with the other side of the coin over on Silky Venom, where apparently at least half the posters are still drinking the Kool-Aid.

Changing the game direction is very dangerous - Silky Venom

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Mithrull

Looks like they have about 125k subs or thereabouts. Not an egg in my book.

Your book doesn't matter. In the real world's book, based on stated goals and expectations 125k is dismal.

[Mithrull]

Originally Posted by Ham n Cheese

Few things, the "penalty" in death is having to retrieve your corpse, lost durability from the death and experience. I don't know another game that uses all 3, and I would say if your group couldn't do an area with their gear on that they'll be summoning to the altar for brutal exp loss.

I'm never naked after a death. Binding, either your main gear or an alternate set, sort of solves that problem. I don't find 7% exp loss brutal though. But I'd guess that 95% of all of my deaths are CR'd so it doesn't come up much. I find 1% losses easy to ingnore.

[Ham n Cheese]

You must be a crafter or whoring yourself out for cash. If I didn't sell my old gear after I was done with it I'd be near broke after buy abilities. Let's say you have to summon one corpse a day on average (just learning new dungeons, or raids, or for whatever reason), at the end of two weeks that's a whole level you lost out on; if those were your only deaths. I don't really have a complaint about the death system outside of all 3 being in the game, repairing is an annoying piece of shit in everygame and retrieving a corpse is just another timesink.

[Mithrull]

No I find crafting pretty boring in every game I play, including VG from what I've seen of it. I typically bind green (common) gear which you can get pretty cheap unless you are way above the level curve. Of course quest rewards are always soulbound so I get to keep a few blue items whether I like it or not.

I don't mind repair costs in general but they are too high.

[stevemcqueen]

Originally Posted by Maxxius

I was content to never address this topic again until I read your wall of spin. Now I understand. Despite the fact that WOW sold MILLIONS of copies of TBC in its first month, the reason why VG has sold only a paltry 100kish is because of the message! No more cherrypicked screenshots. No more handpicked released little blogs. No more NDA. People see exactly what they are getting. End result, the wrong message.

You have to be kidding me.

We warned you that the huge size of the world will make traveling a bitch and hence grouping impossible, but you didn't care. We warned you that people just aren't interested in games with death penalties anymore, but you didn't care. We warned you that the unibody models look dumb and hence less appealing to potential subscribers, but you didn't care. We warned you that steep leveling curves will only turn off alot of people, but you didn't care. We warned you not to launch the game so near WOW's TBC launch, but you didn't care. We warned you that the casual player makes up for the large playing force, not the so called "hardcore" and hence your subscriptions will suck if you don't cater to them, but you didn't care. Until now.

Spin is irrelevant since the proof is in the subscriptions. Your outdated, dinosaur laid an egg, not because the wrong message is out there, but because the right message is.

You have a niche game now and nothing more. Any businessman would tell you your only real shot of grabbing a large audience is in the beginning, wow em now not later (pun intended). Your game hasn't and that is it. At best you can continue to keep it as a niche game with possible small yet steady increases, but the window of opportunity is passing you by. And it will pass you by because you are too dam stubborn to listen to the market.

Sorry Brad, the reason is not the wrong message the reason is the product.

I actually think Brad made an excellent job in the game design area.
People like you don't like it, because it's not your genre, I don't like games with insta-travels and no death penalty, for example.
This game has been designed more for people like me than people like you.

The real problem is that people like me, cannot play it either, because it s bugged, bad performing and the client (and servers) keep crashing (oh and worse in-game customer service ever).
I really like the game, I am having lots of fun when I don't crash.
Unfortunately that happens too often, and I am seriously thinking to give up.
I am playing still hoping that from tomorrow I won't crash not a single time, but unfortunately that doesn't happens and I don't see any improvement after patches.
This issue will break the game. Fix IT.

So it has nothing to do with the game design, what you don't like, someone will, as simple as that.
The common disaster factor though, is the awful stability and performance of the game.

If this is not sorted a.s.a.p. I predict that Vanguard will drop to 50K subscribers very soon, which is a shame, since the game is good and deserve much more credit than all this shit is taking at the moment.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by stevemcqueen

So it has nothing to do with the game design, what you don't like, someone will, as simple as that.
The common disaster factor though, is the awful stability and performance of the game.

It's really a double-edged sword. Sure there are people who like every design of the game, but how many? My guess is it's not a lot. To be honest, I don't have a problem with many of the philosophies of the game, it's the poor implementation. Big world is great, long travel at certain points is fine. Running for 1-2 hours every day or so is not. Challenge and death is great! Losing exp, time, and money all at once is not.

Then on top of the game's focus you have the issues you describe. So you take a niche market and give them a broken game that performs terribly and you are suddenly left with a niche of a niche.. and that doesn't equal success for a huge budget production.

Can it be fixed? Possibly, if the powers that be wake up and smell the coffee. Prioritize what needs to be done to make the game work and then work on making what works more fun and accessible. Or you can just continue to gut classes completely, implement broken high level zones with no geometry and then give everyone double exp so they get there faster.