Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Miele]

Picking a class should be a choice, as Ngruk pointed out, but I don't think a player should be penalized for doing the wrong choice in a fresh new game, maybe this is a point to be considered.

I personally liked the original EQ2 idea, where you picked an archetype and moved towards your end class in the first 20 levels, but I can see why many don't enjoy something like that. I'm also sure something similar could be studied, possibly the same path done in one hour of playing through a short introduction to the world and its lore, rather than after 20 levels that required a lot more time to gain.

None of the classes should fill a niche role: there is no "best at AE damage", because from there on you'll be forced to stuff in AE encounters everywhere to have that class happy.

Abilities should be gained in a different way than by visiting a trainer, here I agree with pretty much everyone else: I wouldn't mind a skill similar to the old EQ research for spellcasters and something along the same lines for meleers and the possibility to upgrade skills efficacy ala EQ2, both via crafting and adventuring.

Lotro never used spell_X (rank 2), but automatically scaled spells with the casters level and that's the way I think it should be done.
Take for example a young mage: he learns Firebolt as his introductory spell to the world of magic, Firebolt will scale with him to max level and will always be the fast casting, cheap on resource consumption, low-medium damage nuke. At one point in his career he learns Fireball, which is a lot more flashy, has a splash area of effect upon impact, longer casting time and higher resource consumption (think of energy, not mana) and can become the main fire-based nuke of the caster for his whole career.

I'd like for some "finesse" to come back into playing a class: as an example in vanilla WoW, tanking in group dungeons was a constant management of abilities on several targets, be them sunder armors, shield slams or shield block/revenge combos, it took awareness of the situation, threath management and didn't allow for mindless AE spamming as we see today in most games. I admit that with some different design decisions it could have been slightly easier to manage things for the tank (allowing for example Tclap in defensive stance would have helped a lot to secure initial agro), but it was doable and it was a lot more fun than AE+AE+AE, rinse/repeat.

[Zehn - Vhex]

As far as tanking goes, holding threat isn't really the fun part. While pushing dps is fun in and of itself, having to tab sunder tab sunder or mouseover sunder wasn't that very interesting. You can go on all you like about "omg skill!" but it wasn't really entertaining. You might as well give a tank an ability called "maintain threat" that does no damage and tell him to spam it over and over again.

I prefer instead ducking behind a corner to dodge a spell, backing out of an AE, stunning them in the middle of huge burst, popping shield wall if my health gets low, etc...

Your mileage may vary of course.

Moreover when I play as a non-tank, I vastly prefer not having to watch threat or sit there with my dick in my hand for 10 seconds as the tank builds threat. Again, I'd rather the skill be in interrupting a cast or switching to a high priority target then going "One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi, okay now attack"

Edit:

Originally Posted by Miele

I personally liked the original EQ2 idea, where you picked an archetype and moved towards your end class in the first 20 levels, but I can see why many don't enjoy something like that.

I didn't really enjoy this too much. It wasn't just that it took awhile to get to 20 and during that time you were a lame duck generic class either. The biggest one is it really detracts from the "my class is unique" feel. EQ2's suffered as well from the class transformation quests almost universally being lame. I think one was "Go here, collect 5 slime samples. That's what it means to be a druid!" or some shit.

If anything, reserve that for the playable demo we discussed where you're a generic level 0 and the game introduces you to basic MMO gameplay as well as the specific features of your particular MMO.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Miele

Picking a class should be a choice, as Ngruk pointed out, but I don't think a player should be penalized for doing the wrong choice in a fresh new game, maybe this is a point to be considered.

THIS! Yes. Something Jason has talked about pretty much every day since he came here. I didn't understand it to the degree he meant it until a year or so ago, but ya, NEVER make an early game choice present itself as a handicap or penalty later in the game.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

As far as tanking goes, holding threat isn't really the fun part. While pushing dps is fun in and of itself, having to tab sunder tab sunder or mouseover sunder wasn't that very interesting. You can go on all you like about "omg skill!" but it wasn't really entertaining. You might as well give a tank an ability called "maintain threat" that does no damage and tell him to spam it over and over again.

I prefer instead ducking behind a corner to dodge a spell, backing out of an AE, stunning them in the middle of huge burst, popping shield wall if my health gets low, etc...

Your mileage may vary of course.

Moreover when I play as a non-tank, I vastly prefer not having to watch threat or sit there with my dick in my hand for 10 seconds as the tank builds threat. Again, I'd rather the skill be in interrupting a cast or switching to a high priority target then going "One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi, okay now attack"

Edit:



I didn't really enjoy this too much. It wasn't just that it took awhile to get to 20 and during that time you were a lame duck generic class either. The biggest one is it really detracts from the "my class is unique" feel. EQ2's suffered as well from the class transformation quests almost universally being lame. I think one was "Go here, collect 5 slime samples. That's what it means to be a druid!" or some shit.

If anything, reserve that for the playable demo we discussed where you're a generic level 0 and the game introduces you to basic MMO gameplay as well as the specific features of your particular MMO.

The problem was that that 'path' you took had you ending up at the same place as the person who chose your class but took the other path. Yes there were 24 classes, but imo that was in name only. There were 12 classes with 24 names.

[Caliane]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

As far as tanking goes, holding threat isn't really the fun part. While pushing dps is fun in and of itself, having to tab sunder tab sunder or mouseover sunder wasn't that very interesting. You can go on all you like about "omg skill!" but it wasn't really entertaining. You might as well give a tank an ability called "maintain threat" that does no damage and tell him to spam it over and over again.

I prefer instead ducking behind a corner to dodge a spell, backing out of an AE, stunning them in the middle of huge burst, popping shield wall if my health gets low, etc...

Your mileage may vary of course.

Moreover when I play as a non-tank, I vastly prefer not having to watch threat or sit there with my dick in my hand for 10 seconds as the tank builds threat. Again, I'd rather the skill be in interrupting a cast or switching to a high priority target then going "One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi, okay now attack"

Edit:



I didn't really enjoy this too much. It wasn't just that it took awhile to get to 20 and during that time you were a lame duck generic class either. The biggest one is it really detracts from the "my class is unique" feel. EQ2's suffered as well from the class transformation quests almost universally being lame. I think one was "Go here, collect 5 slime samples. That's what it means to be a druid!" or some shit.

If anything, reserve that for the playable demo we discussed where you're a generic level 0 and the game introduces you to basic MMO gameplay as well as the specific features of your particular MMO.

Threat in general is one of the worst mmo concepts I have ever seen. Sure its cheap and easy AI. But its horribly unintuitive, creates lame variance from pvp and pve, and is boring. Like you said, watching aggro, etc. Doing too much damage is bad? really? Lineage 2 for example literally did have a "create aggro" button.

I'd like to see the mitigation variance between tanks and non tanks much much smaller. Meaning caster, etc can actually take hits, and are expected to. Freeing up the npcs ability to move around and attack, since they dont have to be locked into place focusing on one "tank" target.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Caliane

Threat in general is one of the worst mmo concepts I have ever seen. Sure its cheap and easy AI. But its horribly unintuitive, creates lame variance from pvp and pve, and is boring. Like you said, watching aggro, etc. Doing too much damage is bad? really? Lineage 2 for example literally did have a "create aggro" button.

I'd like to see the mitigation variance between tanks and non tanks much much smaller. Meaning caster, etc can actually take hits, and are expected to. Freeing up the npcs ability to move around and attack, since they dont have to be locked into place focusing on one "tank" target.

I disagree to some degree, in your opinion on threat. I think it's incredibly relevant and useful when you remember it's all numbers behind the screen, but what I want to see, and what I love about some of the stuff happening here, is more AI, more intelligent MOB AI.

Every encounter taking 5 minutes won't work, no chance, but when encounters take on a life of their own due to 'smarter' mobs on occasion, that makes me tingle

MOBS, like PCs, should range in intelligence and it should show, and mean something, and players once they get into your world should begin to 'learn' about the mobs that way.

Be cool to know that camp of gnolls you spy isn't the Danuser Hill Gnolls, them being dumb, but rather it's the Schilling Clan, known for their group tactics and hatred of healers.....

Then you go from managing a threat meter to managing the actual game screen as you watch for Gnolls to peel off and circle your healer.

[Zehn - Vhex]

tl;dr version: We want smart mobs...but not too smart.

Originally Posted by Ngruk

and what I love about some of the stuff happening here, is more AI, more intelligent MOB AI.

Threat is mostly the result of not being able to properly block mobs and whatnot. What keeps mobs in DnD and whatnot engaged on your tanks is that you'll murder their ass if they try to peel off and more often then not you can corner them or otherwise block your squishies from harm.

Many fond memories of summoning some 2hd creatures, invising them, commanding them to stand in a doorway, casting protection from fire on them and then launching fireballs into the next room without fear of retaliation. <3

Anyways...

Mobs being intelligent is a mixed bag as well. On the one hand it kinda floored me in WoW when a hunter NPC freaking kited me for the first time. On the other hand any remotely intelligent NPC would run away when they saw us coming then come back with about 50 of it's friends.

I think it's ultimately one of those suspension of disbelief things. We look away when mobs do ridiculously stupid things, in return we don't have to snare and silence every single freaking mob we come across just to avoid it shouting out an alarm or running for help.

I mean let's be reasonable. Kel'Thuzad was no idiot. He even asked for help because he knew he was about to get his ass kicked. In a more realistic scenario, he wouldn't leave the front door of Naxx wide freaking open and secondly, as soon as we engaged Sapphiron he would have said, "Alright, screw this" and either gated out or helped Saph kill us. Or hell, even Saph should have realized after his first ice bomb that he shouldn't freeze anyone on the second one so we wouldn't survive.

Shit, we wouldn't have even gotten past Patchwerk. All he'd have to do is keep running back and forth over the slimes and eventually half the raid would wipe itself out on frogger.

So while Danuser and Schilling smart gnolls are fine, Zehn smart gnolls aren't because they'd build a trebuchet out of all the level 5 newbies they murdered and then march on Freeport and then turn it into a Vegas style resort. They'd then use the profits they earned from gambling to invest in cheap broadband for all the citizens of Norrath and enslave them by introducing the new Zehn MMO, complete with job system, equalized pvp, adventure-style character advancement, gimmick servers as a fun diversion and absolutely, positively no having to right click on corpses to loot them.

[Azrayne]

no having to right click on corpses to loot them.

I'd pay for 6 months worth of subscription based on this feature alone.

[Grave]

Originally Posted by Miele

I personally liked the original EQ2 idea, where you picked an archetype and moved towards your end class in the first 20 levels, but I can see why many don't enjoy something like that. I'm also sure something similar could be studied, possibly the same path done in one hour of playing through a short introduction to the world and its lore, rather than after 20 levels that required a lot more time to gain.

I hated this. It was one of the worst things about EQ2.

"Here, try this dull, generic archetype for 20 levels so you can be sure whether or not you wanted to roll a Ranger!"

It just doesn't make sense to me to assume that people don't know what they want or would like, so you try to ease them into making some sort of "educated" decision down the line, when instead you could just let them roll the damn class in the first place and they'll probably figure out within 10 minutes whether they like the idea of it or not.

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Yes there were 24 classes, but imo that was in name only. There were 12 classes with 24 names.

Yep, another huge problem with the game.

Even now, if they would just merge most of the good/evil classes together and then add a completely separate alignment/faction system that was not tied to your class the game would be improved tenfold.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

THIS! Yes. Something Jason has talked about pretty much every day since he came here. I didn't understand it to the degree he meant it until a year or so ago, but ya, NEVER make an early game choice present itself as a handicap or penalty later in the game.

I have dreamed about a MMORPG where you don't in fact pick your class on a character selection screen and instead pick your race and start in the world as a classless human, elf, or what have you. You would then be required to seek out trial trainer areas such as the shady bar where a rogue trainer hangs out, an academy where knights are trained, a old hag's cabin who teaches some basic witchcraft, ect... Guards or the like could be hailed to find out where each type of trial class trainer is.

From that start you are able to try out some various classes by asking the entry level trainers for basic tips (giving you basic skill sets). You can mess around with that killing bats and rats and if you decide you want to try something different then you can talk to a different class of entry level trainer type and get that different skill set to try out. Each of these entry level class trainer people would be fairly noob, they would be the peon of rogues, the 1st year apprentice of wizards, ect... and they would let you know that if you like the thought of this path of life after trying it then talk to "Joe Realtrainer" and he will officially lock in your chosen class with some "Are you sure you wish to follow the path of the Arcane?" type of question and a "Yes, I want to be a Wizard" button.

Perhaps you have to do a small quest or two for the real trainer with the trial skills to officially get the invite to the class and this also rewards you with level 2 such that level 1 is all that trial period and level 2 starts when you actually go beyond being just a "human". The trainer could baulk at your request to join the class initially, give you a quest to prove your worth, and then be impressed by the successful use of the skills/spells that you were able to learn from that young apprentice wizard while completing the couple simple quests and invite you to train with them, setting off the first step in a long road to power.

[Draegan]

I played a MUD years and years ago that had a system that I really loved for spells/skills and mana. It can be adapted quite easily for current day MMOGs.

At the beginning of the game you selected a race, which was extremely important. Each race had a certain amount of skill slots and spell slots. If you picked an orc, lets say, you could learn 15 skills and 18 spells (arbitrary numbers).

Every skill and spell was part of a tree. If you wanted to learn, dual wield for example, you needed to learn 1h slashing, 1h piercing, and some other skill to a certain level before you could train dual wield. Then for some higher up "skills" (the word skill is used for melee abilities) you would need Dual wield and something else. The same thing for spells.

Basically all your skills and spells were part of a tree that needed certain prereqs. If you wanted to make a heavy melee character you would pick a race that had a high skill slot number but in turn had a low spell slot number. But with that high skill slots you can use them for rogue like skills or warrior like skills or tank skills, dps skills etc. Same thing went for spells. A player could roll a "Elf" race and have a ton of spell slots to fill up and be a healer or a dps players, or a combo of both.

The nice thing with this system is that you could drop spells and learn new ones and change your character around.

This was 15 years ago but I'm sure something like this could be adapted for main stream MMOGs and allows you the flexability of creating a character you wanted. If this MUD could balance all the different archtypes.. healer, melee dps, magic dps etc of all flavors and MMOG could. Players had all sorts of builds, and they were all viable.

I liked that system in lieu of using classes.

Derail on what mana system they used.. I'll spoiler it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

There were four elements, obviously earth, wind, fire and air, that were associated with each spell. Each spell had a level. So for example fireball was a level 10 fire spell or you had a complete heal spell that was a level 50 air spell.

Now inherently each player had a natural spell level based on their initial stats. So lets say your elf character had high "mind" stats he would have a spell level of 19 in each element. This means he can cast any spell level 19 or below without assistance.

In order to cast spells higher than level 19 players would have to get gems. They dropped from mobs mostly but you could buy rudimentary gems from shops. The gems would be equipped in your hands in place of weapons and shields. These gems cam in all sorts of sizes and benefits. Some gems increased your earth and fire levels only, some increased just fire, or some increased all four. Some gems gave you more mana, some gave you less. You could also hold two gems at once if you were a caster which would give you more mana.

It was an interesting system that was different. I know Zehn would loathe that system, but there are ways to modify it if you don't want to use mana.

[Caliane]

Originally Posted by Draegan

I played a MUD years and years ago that had a system that I really loved for spells/skills and mana. It can be adapted quite easily for current day MMOGs.

At the beginning of the game you selected a race, which was extremely important. Each race had a certain amount of skill slots and spell slots. If you picked an orc, lets say, you could learn 15 skills and 18 spells (arbitrary numbers).

Every skill and spell was part of a tree. If you wanted to learn, dual wield for example, you needed to learn 1h slashing, 1h piercing, and some other skill to a certain level before you could train dual wield. Then for some higher up "skills" (the word skill is used for melee abilities) you would need Dual wield and something else. The same thing for spells.

Basically all your skills and spells were part of a tree that needed certain prereqs. If you wanted to make a heavy melee character you would pick a race that had a high skill slot number but in turn had a low spell slot number. But with that high skill slots you can use them for rogue like skills or warrior like skills or tank skills, dps skills etc. Same thing went for spells. A player could roll a "Elf" race and have a ton of spell slots to fill up and be a healer or a dps players, or a combo of both.

The nice thing with this system is that you could drop spells and learn new ones and change your character around.

This was 15 years ago but I'm sure something like this could be adapted for main stream MMOGs and allows you the flexability of creating a character you wanted. If this MUD could balance all the different archtypes.. healer, melee dps, magic dps etc of all flavors and MMOG could. Players had all sorts of builds, and they were all viable.

I liked that system in lieu of using classes.

Derail on what mana system they used.. I'll spoiler it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

There were four elements, obviously earth, wind, fire and air, that were associated with each spell. Each spell had a level. So for example fireball was a level 10 fire spell or you had a complete heal spell that was a level 50 air spell.

Now inherently each player had a natural spell level based on their initial stats. So lets say your elf character had high "mind" stats he would have a spell level of 19 in each element. This means he can cast any spell level 19 or below without assistance.

In order to cast spells higher than level 19 players would have to get gems. They dropped from mobs mostly but you could buy rudimentary gems from shops. The gems would be equipped in your hands in place of weapons and shields. These gems cam in all sorts of sizes and benefits. Some gems increased your earth and fire levels only, some increased just fire, or some increased all four. Some gems gave you more mana, some gave you less. You could also hold two gems at once if you were a caster which would give you more mana.

It was an interesting system that was different. I know Zehn would loathe that system, but there are ways to modify it if you don't want to use mana.

You know the 4 elements are so cliche and boring too. Only broken up with 6 when they add light and shadow.

Should make a new system with something different. Earth, wind, fire, baseball and spoon.

[Kuro]

Instead of the 4 elements, it should harness the power of the Periodic Table of the Elements.

FRANCIUM BLAST!

[Cowbell]

The fewer tanks, the better. 2 is more than enough.

With dps and healers you can have more because there are more 'types' of healers and dps as some have stated. Backstabbing rogue or fireballing mage. Big single target heals or HoTs.

With tanks, if you try and balance them to where its "bring the player, not the class" then you end up with every tank needing the same cooldowns, the same mitigation etc. For flavor you really only need 2 types...a holy type warrior and a dark knight.

Please dont have more than 2 tanks. It will be less work on your part to try and constantly balance us and you can focus your attention on other things. Also, Tanks dont really care about flavor nearly as much as healers or dps. All we care about is min/maxing stats and how hard we get hit.

[Gallenite]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

The problem was that that 'path' you took had you ending up at the same place as the person who chose your class but took the other path. Yes there were 24 classes, but imo that was in name only. There were 12 classes with 24 names.

You would have loved the 2003 version -- There were 4 classes with 24 names.

(Word of advice: If your mechanics designers are too happy with how nice and systemic everything is, be concerned.)