Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by UnchainedAcolyte

Some of these have been accomplished to a very minor degree in other MMOs, but have by far been the exception.

The problem invariably is it still takes time to generate content for. Most of these companies have a hard enough time as is generating enough adventuring content to fill our needs.

Even the single-player genre has struggled with this for ages. Oblivion/Morrowind were supposed to be the paragon "NEVER RAISE A SWORD TO WIN THE GAME!" type adventures but in the end who didn't pick up a sword and whack around some goblins?

I agree though, I'd like to see the idea evolved more. Diplomacy is too good a concept to let it die with VanGuard.

[Grave]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Why not just have the dragon drop the goddamn in the first place then? Why add an extra step? Not to redirect this train to a "random loot is a terrible game mechanic" conversation but unless you're just trying to alleviate the problems inherrant to random loot you're not really accomplishing much.

It feels like a major, -major- copout. "We're going to control the rarity of an raid-level crafted item by just making the materials drop off the same shit you kill in raids, yay balance!"

Why even bother?

Because the tooth (or whatever the dropped item might be) is a component that can be used to make multiple items. It's up to the crafter what he or she chooses to make with it (or what the guild asks them to make), whereas if just the item itself dropped that is the only choice.

Yeah, it's a way to alleviate issues with RNG. We already know that you and I disagree about the RNG, because I like it to a certain extent. I think it can be too punishing when people have long runs of bad luck though, so a system like this helps solve that.

Maybe your Rogue has had terrible luck with daggers, so the first tooth is going to be made into a new one for him. The next one might go to someone else as a completely different item. Eventually, when no one needed the crafted items anymore, they'd simply have a role similar to the current BOEs in WoW and become something the guild auctions off for funds.

The key is making the components rare enough that the crafted items don't just become so ridiculously common that everyone just buys expensive crafted weapons instead of hoping for a raid drop. The main difference would be crafting components might drop from every raid boss, whereas the weapon you want might only drop from one boss. The benefit of the craft version is you get to pick what it is once you get those mats.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Diplomacy is too good a concept to let it die with VanGuard.

It's a good idea - but I don't like the implementation. If they were going to make it a card game (and Lord knows I love me some MMO + CCG mechanics) and they did, they should have gone all out and made it a full blown card game. Think Legends of Norrath or MTG or whatever.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

The problem invariably is it still takes time to generate content for.

Exactly. That's what kills me about meta-games in adventure games - there is only so much development time, and you want the elements your game focuses on to be smooth, functional, and as polished as possible for a first impression. Sadly, I just loves me some crafting and alternate ways to affect my game world.

Not sure if it would be plausible, but with all of the talk of Free Realms and other microtransaction/alternate subscription models would charging for different meta-game classes and content would be a viable approach?

For example:

Adventuring and basic crafting content - 12.95/mo USD

Adventuring and full crafting (or 1 other meta-game spheres' content) content - 14.95/mo USD

Adventuring, 2 meta-game spheres' content - 17.95/mo USD

Adventuring and 3 meta-game spheres' content - 19.95/mo USD

The additional revenue could be used to fund the teams working on specific content, and allow the meta-game to be a more viable part of the overall MMO.

I agree that adventuring should always be at the forefront of a game designed for the masses. Creative and fun meta-gaming, however, would be the content to move MMOs from "game" to "world", and broaden the appeal, in my opinion.

[Greyform]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

All it would really do is just stave off Mudflation that much longer. Once you started getting magic items, that's it. You're right back to where you were before with every DIKU mud since EQ.

really most of the magic items just like the mundane items that fall off most mobs are just vender trash anyway. So the idea that you need to do a dungeon or kill a boss to get the “good stuff” is already in play.

Originally Posted by Grave

Because the tooth (or whatever the dropped item might be) is a component that can be used to make multiple items. It's up to the crafter what he or she chooses to make with it (or what the guild asks them to make), whereas if just the item itself dropped that is the only choice.

Yeah, it's a way to alleviate issues with RNG. We already know that you and I disagree about the RNG, because I like it to a certain extent. I think it can be too punishing when people have long runs of bad luck though, so a system like this helps solve that.

Maybe your Rogue has had terrible luck with daggers, so the first tooth is going to be made into a new one for him. The next one might go to someone else as a completely different item. Eventually, when no one needed the crafted items anymore, they'd simply have a role similar to the current BOEs in WoW and become something the guild auctions off for funds.

The key is making the components rare enough that the crafted items don't just become so ridiculously common that everyone just buys expensive crafted weapons instead of hoping for a raid drop. The main difference would be crafting components might drop from every raid boss, whereas the weapon you want might only drop from one boss. The benefit of the craft version is you get to pick what it is once you get those mats.

Don't they already do this with tokens you can just turn in?

[MrGraham]

Originally Posted by Greyform

Don't they already do this with tokens you can just turn in?

Sure, but by making it take crafting you reward a player for working on crafting. One of the things that was nice about EQ/EQ2 was that we had a person who was amazing at the market and tradeskilling and house building and they really helped out the guild, both in terms of progression with the tradeskills/money and with morale with the house shit. Fast forward to WoW and there's no real equivalent role for her, so she quit pretty quickly. If you suck at raiding/pvp there's no real way for you to contribute to your character or your guild. Part of this is a lack of slack within raids (taking an extra body to EQ raids was rarely an issue, regardless of how bad they are), but I like the idea of having real alternatives to slaying teh dragon (or column hugging!) when playing the game.

[Ninen]

As much as we all have become spreadsheet jockeys, most of us still have the little nuggets of stereotypical fantasy RPG mentality in us somewhere.

Hell, this is the whole reason everyone wants to be The Hero, not just a hero.

Crafting (or having crafted for us) a dagger from a dragons tooth, or armor/shield from hide or frost protection cloak from the fur of the giant burrowing ice blah blah blah is still very much a box many of us like to check off on our way through the game.

Sure, it could just be a token system by another name. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with letting crafters feel mighty too.

Some of this is just polish issues. Dragon dropping dagger vs dragon dropping tooth that turns into dagger. Random_boar_04 having a chance to drop an axe vs Uncommon Named Wounded_Boar_02 having a chance to drop an axe. Predatory_Raptor_05 dropping plate chest piece vs Predatory_Raptor_05's death triggering an emote and a visible trail back to its nest which has a plate chest piece in the detritus.

I'd rather play the game with the 2nd option of the above.

[Araxen]

Originally Posted by Tearofsoul

This is good read: Exclusive Interview with 38 Studios' R.A. Salvatore

I started drooling a bit when he said Forgotten Realms MMO I have to admit.

I can't wait to see what he's come up with for Copernicus. I'm not even a lore nerd, but I'm extremely interested in the world he's building because I know it'll be excellent. Makes me wonder if the game will be taking more of a EQ route(ie. slower leveling) than the WOW route by his comments in that interview.

10,000 years of Lore...the lore nerds are going to be having multiple orgasms over that.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Same here regarding the Salvatore interview. You need good lore to give a game world meaning and direction. Yes, you need good in-game systems and class design, but quests, races, classes, and so forth need to have meaning and purpose within the perspective of the game world, and it needs to be well-developed.

I've beaten this horse to death, but I would have stayed in Vanguard far longer had there been good lore, especially surrounding the races, locations (Vault of Heroes, etc.) and notable NPCs.

Here's another vote for slower leveling, or even the option to suspend experience a la EQ2 for the option of exploring more of the game world before growing out of it.

That and mentoring (EQ2). Allowing interaction between new and established community members is important, and should be fun for both.

[Eonan]

Originally Posted by UnchainedAcolyte

Here's another vote for slower leveling, or even the option to suspend experience a la EQ2 for the option of exploring more of the game world before growing out of it.

That and mentoring (EQ2). Allowing interaction between new and established community members is important, and should be fun for both.

The mentoring system in EQ2 is in my opinion the best MMO feature to come to the industry with this "generation" of games. The only catch to it is, there needs to be a reason to "mentor" down and go through content that won't benefit you. Yes I know EQ2 gives you a slight reason to through AA XP. A mentor system would never work in a game like WoW where there is absolutely nothing to be gained (OMG ACHIEVMENTS!? ) from doing old content.

[tikkus]

This isn't a response to anyone in particular, just an idea.

I personally think that the best items in the game should utilize both crafting and raiding, as per Grave's idea. Hell, I remember reading a post by Furor before WoW's launch outlining a quest where you absolutely had to forge a certain item in the spine of a slain dragon. I'd really like to see more stuff like that.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by Eonan

The mentoring system in EQ2 is in my opinion the best MMO feature to come to the industry with this "generation" of games. The only catch to it is, there needs to be a reason to "mentor" down and go through content that won't provide you with gear upgrades (yes I know EQ2 gives you a slight reason to through AA XP). A mentor system would never work in a game like WoW where there is absolutely nothing to be gained (OMG ACHIEVMENTS!? ) from doing old content.

Fun?

Two things that come to mind, though, are helping a friend or guildmate through content but keeping it enjoyably challenging through mentoring down instead of PL'ing, and for the higher-level player going through content you didn't get a chance to experience the first time (likely due to leveling out of it).

Leveling needs to be a bit slower than the current trend imo. Yes, I'm not a believer in instant gratification for the average player, and for those that couldn't play online as often, a mentoring system would serve a purpose.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Leveling speed is irrelevant. What's important is the amount of unique content for it to not feel stale. If you really want your players to do all your content, then just get rid of experience entirely and reward advancement based on completion of story events.

That's ultimately what I'd do anyways. Most of your character upgrades would come from completing each zones main storyline(s) whith various sidequests that reward you with reptuation/items/money/whatever.

That way you get your new spells as a factor of slaying an evil (or good if that's your thing) wizard and stealing his spellbooks as opposed to the more classic 'kill 300 boars, buy new spell, repeat.'

[Greyform]

Originally Posted by MrGraham

Sure, but by making it take crafting you reward a player for working on crafting. One of the things that was nice about EQ/EQ2 was that we had a person who was amazing at the market and tradeskilling and house building and they really helped out the guild, both in terms of progression with the tradeskills/money and with morale with the house shit. Fast forward to WoW and there's no real equivalent role for her, so she quit pretty quickly. If you suck at raiding/pvp there's no real way for you to contribute to your character or your guild. Part of this is a lack of slack within raids (taking an extra body to EQ raids was rarely an issue, regardless of how bad they are), but I like the idea of having real alternatives to slaying teh dragon (or column hugging!) when playing the game.

I see where you're going. I think EQ had it right with Bane weapons. Where you could not do the quest without the right type of weapon.

LOTRO sort of had the idea where you needed certain drops off of specific mobs to complete some recipes. I think they reversed this later to make them more generic.

I believe they also added (I'm not sure I quit the game awhile ago) where you could only make some items from certain forges found in dungeons.

[ChewieTobbacca]

From that Salvatore interview:

Salvatore: Why does this dark elf named Kizdean Gix keep chasing me and killing me? I don't understand.

Man, I remember that, and good ol Ambassador Dvinn

I gotta say, I hope that we can have a new game some day with that sense of awe in wondering wtf was going on in the world