Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

ahh...forgive my assumption.

Your assumption was correct. But it was only one part of the whole point.

You can innovate even through UI design, for example (the "healer problem" is one of those who BEGS to be addressed).

In the same way content and MMO development in general can be more than opening "x" new zones, scattering NPCs and spawn lists and building loot tables for every expansion you release.

That's just a flat, horizontal and dispersive type of growth that naturally leads to a collapse.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Abalieno

Your assumption was correct. But it was only one part of the whole point.

You can innovate even through UI design, for example (the "healer problem" is one of those who BEGS to be addressed).

In the same way content and MMO development in general can be more than opening "x" new zones, scattering NPCs and spawn lists and building loot tables for every expansion you release.

That's just a flat, horizontal and dispersive type of growth that naturally leads to a collapse.

I am not sure what 'leads to a collapse" means but I agree that there are ways to innovate beyond zones and populating them. I also think that pretty much every designer in the industry knows that as well.

The stuff that makes players scream is based on decisions made by lead designers and dev leads, and those guys are pretty much cushioned from the blow of public opinion by the guys on the front lines handling communities and physically implementing the design changes.

[Ngruk]

Ok I am going to take the EVE plunge this week and try it out.
Also, in my 4 spare minutes a week I am leveling a WoW toon without making an alt this time!

[Eduardo]

heh, I was just about to plunge into eq2 but there isn't a store in this town that sells the boxed version of the expansion But Eve sure does look fun. I tried Eve once before but switched to wow because all my old college buddies played wow, but my wow account has been unpaid for a few months now (bye bye 60 lock and priest and mage.) It is a tough call though, must mitigate time and money properly and at this point I can't see myself getting back into an mmo due to these constraints. Oh how I envy thy players who can devote time to their mmos!

[Gaereth]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Ok I am going to take the EVE plunge this week and try it out.

Hah...me as well. All these threads have slowly invaded my consciousness and I have have to find out for myself ...why..why...WHY!!!!?!?!?

And...after about 4hrs last night my inner geek awoke with joy to dash yet again to the puter this morning. Its fun so far with this ridiculously overpowering detail that stuns you into geek happiness. And WARP!!!

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

I am not sure what 'leads to a collapse" means but I agree that there are ways to innovate beyond zones and populating them.

It's off-topic and a deeper discussion, but I was referring to the fact that the more the game grows, the more the gap between new and veteran players increase, leading to an aging community that slowly loses the growth coming from the influx on new players. It gets increasingly niche.

This is what happens when games, after release, focus on the retention more than trying to continue to be appealing for new players. It's an inexorable process that brings to a slow, progressive decline.

And it's also related to something known as "mudflation". Or the lie that wants quantity of MMO content to increase, when, concretely, it's shrinking and becoming less and less accessible.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Abalieno

It's off-topic and a deeper discussion, but I was referring to the fact that the more the game grows, the more the gap between new and veteran players increase, leading to an aging community that slowly loses the growth coming from the influx on new players. It gets increasingly niche.

This is what happens when games, after release, focus on the retention more than trying to continue to be appealing for new players. It's an inexorable process that brings to a slow, progressive decline.

And it's also related to something known as "mudflation". Or the lie that wants quantity of MMO content to increase, when, concretely, it's shrinking and becoming less and less accessible.

The only way the gap grows is if you don't pay constant attention to entry level content and keep it on pace with the rest of the world.

Plopping down an awesome intro experience is a must, but it's still got to be awesome a year or more out from launch. There are so many ways to insure that players of all levels of skill and playstyles have a world that challenges them if they want it, or allows them to exist comfortably in it if they choose that.

[Jovec]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

The only way the gap grows is if you don't pay constant attention to entry level content and keep it on pace with the rest of the world.

Plopping down an awesome intro experience is a must, but it's still got to be awesome a year or more out from launch. There are so many ways to insure that players of all levels of skill and playstyles have a world that challenges them if they want it, or allows them to exist comfortably in it if they choose that.

The gap grows because the entry level is always the same place (level 1, no money, no gear) but content progression is a constantly moving target. A constant influx of new players won't help if the time required to go from level 1 to max level with appropriate gear/AA/whatever is the same fixed amount years after launch as it was at game release.

[soffo]

Originally Posted by Jovec

The gap grows because the entry level is always the same place (level 1, no money, no gear) but content progression is a constantly moving target. A constant influx of new players won't help if the time required to go from level 1 to max level with appropriate gear/AA/whatever is the same fixed amount years after launch as it was at game release.

And thats where AAs went wrong. Take a look at WoW though; if anything the leveling rate to "raid ready" has greatly increased. Then again, one of the greatest strengths of WoW is that it actually has a 1-60 progression that doesnt involve camping an alligator pit for 8 levels.

I do believe that Blizzard has focused on retention AND new player influx more then any other company really has, but thats saying a lot because they've also designed their game around new players vs. veterans.

To get back on track, I'd really like to see an MMO come out that really innovates the genre through its world. To be honest, thus far, the only MMO to push the world itself (that I've seen) is Everquest. Maybe it was the simple fact that I ran across the world so much, maybe it was just the landscapes, but traveling from big open tundra (everfrost) to say gnomeregan really displayed creativity. I dont really mean to dwell on the past, but I always really enjoyed (and miss) high pass hold because every area near it was so flagrantly flush with a great imagination.

I'd love to see a bunch of artists and writers work together to designed a game's storyline and world. Designers need to take much bigger looks at the truly classic RPGs - Chrono trigger, Final Fantasies, etc. The 2d worlds of those games put shame to the 3d worlds of modern MMOs. With that being said, I'd like to see some flying islands attached to the ground with chains

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by soffo

I do believe that Blizzard has focused on retention AND new player influx more then any other company really has, but thats saying a lot because they've also designed their game around new players vs. veterans.

At all.

Let's be honest. WoW has an unexpected player retention but this is due to two main reasons:

1- WoW is "king of the hill", and that fact alone builds retention and influx of new players. And this fact won't change till WoW won't have a serious competitor (and it won't happen anytime soon).
2- The good retention the game still has is NOT due to what Blizzard did from release till today, but the great work on the "accessibility" that was done BEFORE release.

For example something that I repeat from *years* is that a soloable game usually can survive better on the longer term as it can depend less on the presence of other players.

But despite WoW has a very good retention, it is still a clone of a model that is DESTINED to a decline. This is a rule.

A game world based on THAT model can die more or less slowly, but the fact that it WILL die is assured.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Abalieno

At all.

Let's be honest. WoW has an unexpected player retention but this is due to two main reasons:.

I disagree. You don't keep 5+ million people from around the world due to two main reasons, or even 10, you do it because there are a million more reasons it's good than it's bad.

Originally Posted by Abalieno

1- WoW is "king of the hill", and that fact alone builds retention and influx of new players. And this fact won't change till WoW won't have a serious competitor (and it won't happen anytime soon).
2- The good retention the game still has is NOT due to what Blizzard did from release till today, but the great work on the "accessibility" that was done BEFORE release.:.

1) We can agree to disagree again Being king of the hill has zero affect on player retention imo. Players don't continue to play a game that sucks, regardless of how many others are playing it.

2) I think the main reason it's retained it's massive player base is because Blizzard delivered what the umpteen millions of Blizzard fans expected. Blizzard was, imo, the third most branded franchise to ever enter the MMO space, following LoTR and Star Wars. Blizzard had almost a decade worth of branding the Warcraft world and of putting stuff into the game space with the Blizzard name on it, and they repeatedly pleased their customers by doing it right the first time. I don't know about you but that matters to me. In this day and age, to KNOW I can buy a game and not have a mountain of issues before I can even log in is not something I take lightly, since basically no one else does it.

Originally Posted by Abalieno

For example something that I repeat from *years* is that a soloable game usually can survive better on the longer term as it can depend less on the presence of other players.

But despite WoW has a very good retention, it is still a clone of a model that is DESTINED to a decline. This is a rule.

A game world based on THAT model can die more or less slowly, but the fact that it WILL die is assured.

WoW will die when they want it to. Saying an MMO world is going to eventually fade away is akin to saying the sun will come out tomorrow.
WoW may lose player base, but that modified number will still surpass by a factor of 10 at least, anything else done in the U.S. to date.

What I do love about them and the game is that there really is so much to learn from both as a development company and a player.

I've said it too many times already, but it is still fact imo, it has and always will come back to the game.

You can have the greatest brand on the planet, the coolest art, most involved and interesting storyline, but if your game sucks your game sucks and no amount of design or creative genius will get players to play.

I really think at the core of the development ideas you have to focus on trying NOT to make YOUR game.

I'll give you an example.

PvP.... I absolutely hate it, always have. Having said that there is a MASSIVE PvP audience out there. To design a game and not include an incredibly in depth and well designed PvP system is, I think, bad business and stupid. Why alienate an enormous section of players because you don't like an aspect of game play that a huge faction of fans does? Bottom line is you don't, and you also realize that's probably not the only thing that as the Founder of a Game company you don't like, that will actually work.

That's why you MUST have outside the box, innovative and envelope pushing talent in every arena of game development.

People that have worked for SOE, EA, Blizzard, Mythic, Midway, etc., they have all been there and done that and the good ones, while being part of teams that have developed things that DON'T work or have failed, they've gotten better because they learned from those mistakes and aren't still trying to push round pegs in square holes. They are creating their own new pegs and holes based on trial and error that, and this is important to me, has PROVEN itself to not work in the game space and has already been battle tested by the masses.

[KharzaWHA?]

Just curious, what don't you like about PvP? Anything specific? Are there other genres of computer game pvp that you've played?

[James]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

1) We can agree to disagree again Being king of the hill has zero affect on player retention imo. Players don't continue to play a game that sucks, regardless of how many others are playing it.

I would normally agree, but in such a socially intense genre, I think a large player base has a *ton* to do with player retention. Finding groups with 800 million people online is easier than with just 800 online.

[Jovec]

Originally Posted by James

I would normally agree, but in such a socially intense genre, I think a large player base has a *ton* to do with player retention. Finding groups with 800 million people online is easier than with just 800 online.

Or your 80 guildmates or 8 RL friends all playing the same MMO. I don't think I'd be alone on this board if I said I would leave WoW if the majority of my friends went to Eve, EQ2, or one of the upcoming MMOs. Half the nights we seem to be logging in out of habit rather than because we are looking forward to it.

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

I disagree. You don't keep 5+ million people from around the world due to two main reasons, or even 10, you do it because there are a million more reasons it's good than it's bad.

Of course, but that's like saying nothing. On my site I went more in detail, but the point is that the rest is subordinate to those two main points.

1) We can agree to disagree again Being king of the hill has zero affect on player retention imo.

Oh, sure, let's disagree because I think you are completely wrong

Success, in particular when you involve a mass market, is a cascading phenomenon. This is why WoW broke every barrier BEYOND ITS WORTH. Once you "trigger" the process, nothing can stop or contain it.

Players bring other players, and the fact that the game, and just that game, is prevalent EVERYWHERE builds an interest and a legitimation of that interest. It becomes an "hegemony" and it builds consensus.

We won't see WoW "real" retention till WoW won't have a serious competitor. And, as I said, I don't see this happening anytime soon.

2) I think the main reason it's retained it's massive player base is because Blizzard delivered what the umpteen millions of Blizzard fans expected. Blizzard was, imo, the third most branded franchise to ever enter the MMO space, following LoTR and Star Wars.

This is a widespread commonplace that I always fought.

Give WoW to SOE or to Mythic and I think it would have triggered a very similar effect.

The brand or licence alone are irrelevant (see SWG as an obvious example).

WoW will die when they want it to. Saying an MMO world is going to eventually fade away is akin to saying the sun will come out tomorrow.

I don't agree. Worlds for their nature have a very long lasting appeal. Tolkien has built a world that is still loved today and I don't see it declining anytime soon.

The point is how you render those worlds into a game. And if these games are "transitory" it's because of how their are being built, and not because there's an absolute rule that regulates their life-cycles.

The remaining points are also arguable, but I won't nitpick