Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[etchazz]

i think any company who actually listens to the player base (whom they invited into beta to help test the game to begin with) would be a huge step in the right direction. I realize you can't implement every suggestion by every player, but a lot of times there are serious complaints about a game by a huge percentage of the player base during beta that falls on deaf ears.

[James]

Originally Posted by etchazz

i think any company who actually listens to the player base (whom they invited into beta to help test the game to begin with) would be a huge step in the right direction.

One name alone can debunk this argument: Dumar.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by etchazz

i think any company who actually listens to the player base (whom they invited into beta to help test the game to begin with) would be a huge step in the right direction. I realize you can't implement every suggestion by every player, but a lot of times there are serious complaints about a game by a huge percentage of the player base during beta that falls on deaf ears.

Instead of having to listen to the entire playerbase - probably better off picking 10-20 players from top guilds that have been invited to the beta and 10-20 avowedly casual/solo/duo players who have consistently made semi-intelligent posts on their forums. Keep those 20-40 as your Greek Chorus and maybe setup a ventrilio from time to time (once a month?) to get specific feedback from them about changes/major issues with the game. Reward them with a free collector's box and a month play at the end of the beta.

If it's a serious issue and you've picked your Chorus right -- they should see the problem and be able to convey it to developers.

[Gnome Eater]

Originally Posted by James

One name alone can debunk this argument: Dumar.

Vanguard... beta... boards

[Zehn - Vhex]

Haha. God, never in my life again shall I witness the glory of the VG beta boards.

You know what I -really- hate about Beta's though? Beta hippies. You know the types. "We should just be happy they've chosen us to test their game!" and "HELLO BETA PEEPS! *HUGS*" and "It's such an honor to be beta testing this game!" and "Just think...we get to be part of the process of making XYZ into the next hit video game!" and so on and so forth.

[Gnome Eater]

Of the whole vanguard melt-down saga I think the most tragic episode is when Nino got flamed to fuck by people in beta for asking them to stop flaming everyone who joined the public boards and suggested that warcraft wasn't shit.

If you posted that wow was good or had some good features you'd get people who wanted you killed.

[rangoth]

Originally Posted by tad10

Instead of having to listen to the entire playerbase - probably better off picking 10-20 players from top guilds that have been invited to the beta and 10-20 avowedly casual/solo/duo players who have consistently made semi-intelligent posts on their forums. Keep those 20-40 as your Greek Chorus and maybe setup a ventrilio from time to time (once a month?) to get specific feedback from them about changes/major issues with the game. Reward them with a free collector's box and a month play at the end of the beta.

If it's a serious issue and you've picked your Chorus right -- they should see the problem and be able to convey it to developers.

I have to disagree....at least depending on what you are trying to make.

If your goal is to make an amazing niche game for the tech elite, or raiders, or dorks, or card game fanatics this may work, but if you have ANY desire to even approach main stream, the absolute worst thing you can do is blindly listen to these 10 hour a day rejects.

Sure if they post detailed math explaining a bug, take the advice but that's not what I'm talking about. If you listen to them on whats fun or design mechanics its just a crap shoot. You might have one genuine guy in there out for the best, but most of those idiots are die hard fanatics that don't translate to reality. Brad McQuaid all over again.

Make the game you want to make...since that's what companies are gonna do anyway, then have a REAL beta, where you only invite small numbers of people, contract, NDA, low paid employees and test your game. Then when you have all the shit worked out do the normal "free preview" beta for a week or something.

[Zehn - Vhex]

People complained about the weirdest shit during the VG beta as well. I remember a long thread about someone crying because mounts were just a buff with a graphic and that made them meaningless. And I sat there thinking, "Well...technically aren't swords and armor just a buff with a graphic then?"

I remember some dev, I think it was Jerrith but I could be wrong and probably am because he's the only one who's name I remember, putting up a poll asking people what they thought the 'aveage' fight time should be. People were saying for trash mobs, standard XP TRASH MOBS mind you, 2~5 minutes was an acceptable encounter time.

I never facepalmed so hard in my life. I got flamed to shit because I suggested that the average lifespan of a mob once pulled should be 10, maybe 20 seconds tops. It should never take more then one attack chain to kill anything that wasn't an epic level encounter.

God...so many awesome threads. I wish I could wayback machine them somehow.

It's thanks to VG I came to really hate various terms like "meaningful." Everyone would justify or decry something because without xp-loss, leveling wasn't "meaningful" and without item loss pvp wasn't "meaningful." Travel is meaningless with teleports. I mean it was just such a bullshit word and got tossed around so much. It became...meaningless.

Innovation and immersive as well became bullshit words. So many words that were just tossed around like they had any actual value anymore.

[CnCGOD]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

It's thanks to VG I came to really hate various terms like "meaningful." Everyone would justify or decry something because without xp-loss, leveling wasn't "meaningful" and without item loss pvp wasn't "meaningful." Travel is meaningless with teleports. I mean it was just such a bullshit word and got tossed around so much. It became...meaningless.

There is something to be said for giving meaning to failure in the game and requiring effort to travel etc. Everything being without penalty makes achievements less valued in that you can just throw yourself at it all day and all night then claim victory despite 1000s of failures.

[tad10]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

I never facepalmed so hard in my life. I got flamed to shit because I suggested that the average lifespan of a mob once pulled should be 10, maybe 20 seconds tops. It should never take more then one attack chain to kill anything that wasn't an epic level encounter.

Never saw that thread but then I wasn't in VG beta till phase 4? November 2006ish.

Anyway, that's a little quick for me. I don't mind grinding mobs that take more than 20seconds to kill as long as I'm getting decent xp.

Qucik-death mobs/small XP or Slow-death mobs/large XP. 6 of 1/ half a dozen of the other right?

I still like the VG dot system though they long ago screwed up the XP curve on so it doesn't really accomplish what it was supposed to accomplish. Kill lots of 2 dots quickly, or kill 3/4 dots slower in a group. Of course AoErs could just kill both - but that's another story. There was a little more granularity in the dot system than in the WoW or LOTRO non-elite/elite system IIRC (been two years since WoW for me).

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by CnCGOD

Everything being without penalty makes achievements less valued

Let's not start this argument again or we'll have 20 pages of anecdotal stories about how awesome you felt after losing 2 levels breaking into hate and I can tell stories about how awesome I felt having more then 50% of my deaths in EverQuest being linkdeath related. We have 3 other EQ threads to deal with that nostalgia faggotry in and I've done my part and stayed the fuck out of them.

Anyways...

The problem Tad is that you're thinking "What do I expect in an MMO" and not "How should a game feel?" We all enjoy epic boss battles. But prior to the rise of MMO's the thought of a typical trash mob in a video game lasting more then 2~5 hits was almost unheard of. Can you imagine playing Mario brothers where you had to jump on each goomba's head for 4 minutes before it died?

Plus, you don't feel very heroic having an epic 2 minute struggle against the fearsome white tailed doe that developers feel they invariable need to put in the game because heaven fucking forbid we can get past level 10 without having to slaughter wildlife to "LOL MAKE YOU FEEL WEAK!"

[Nirgon]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Haha. God, never in my life again shall I witness the glory of the VG beta boards.

You know what I -really- hate about Beta's though? Beta hippies. You know the types. "We should just be happy they've chosen us to test their game!" and "HELLO BETA PEEPS! *HUGS*" and "It's such an honor to be beta testing this game!" and "Just think...we get to be part of the process of making XYZ into the next hit video game!" and so on and so forth.

And you wonder why they ship games when they "seem ready".

Edit: Not you in particular, the hypothetical "you" in broad.

[Nirgon]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

"LOL MAKE YOU FEEL WEAK!"

Hard core servers are a step in the right direction. Many people have flocked to more competitive battlegroups in WoW. Someone should be cashing in on this idea. It generates more drama/press -> interest in the game.

[Ngruk]

I've often wondered what 'you' mean, as players, when you say/scream/whine/yell/cry/legitimately complain about companies 'not listening' or being 'open' to player input/feedback during an alpha or beta.

What's the expectation? This thread could go wildly askew if people give asshat answers, but to the folks that understand a little but about how games are actually made, what's the real expectation from players of the company they are in a beta for?

Having been in Beta's since EQ I never have had issue with companies because I always assumed my job was to report bugs, and nothing more. If I spent my time cross checking references about my report being answered/addressed I played less, which meant I did less as a tester.

There are times I do check, but that's not until a game I've tested went live do will I intentionally look for things I know I reported, but not until then.

Obviously there are some bugs that are game changing that can't go unresolved, but those I have found are in the minority.

[Draax]

I have tested ( not open beta test ) 3 games so far and I don't get why some people feel they have a reason to want/need to change the aspect of the game with things such as combat or whatever in beta let alone alpha. That should be up to the developers if they feel their system isn't what they like, and its not like your paying for the game when testing (maybe wasting your time). At least you get to know not to buy this game once its released based on the core fundamentals of it.