Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Agraza

In reference to WoW, you're thinking of heirlooms rather than legendaries.

Ahh, right. But I know that i'm rapidly running out of shit to buy for my alts, and the badges are starting to pile up again

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Palum

I think I should point out that stacking buff items to equip/activate equipment you shouldn't be able to isn't 'fun' or 'innovative'. It was god damn retarded in AC and is just as stupid a concept in AO or any game since then. The dumb Focusing Stone was the start of 18 piece of gear startup checklists for equipping stuff without Arcane Lore trained. I mean if you really enjoy that sort of thing, go write technical manuals and stop playing MMOs.

Thats where you confuse it. In AO, you WERE able. And encouraged. It was part of the game's design. It wasn't some fluke side effect borne out of a lack of forethought in the development. The problem was that it was just too complicated and time consuming for most average gamers.

In that respect yes, its retarded. But make it more easily accessable to a wider percentage of your playerbase, and it becomes more of an asset.

Twinking in AO may have been a pain in the ass for many, but you didn't exactly have to be a rocket scientist either. You could get by easily without it. But if you were really into it, it added another aspect to the game to enjoy. AO's twinking was definitely NOT for what i'd consider a "casual" player.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

I think not being able to backstab or gouge with a staff or cast elaborate spells with a breastplate is pretty reasonable. There is a reason cloth classes wear robes instead of, you know, armor, in a world where they are constantly in mortal danger, after all. Not like it's a concept that hasn't been done.

[Flight]

Originally Posted by Rayne

Thats where you confuse it. In AO, you WERE able. And encouraged. It was part of the game's design. It wasn't some fluke side effect borne out of a lack of forethought in the development. The problem was that it was just too complicated and time consuming for most average gamers.

In that respect yes, its retarded. But make it more easily accessable to a wider percentage of your playerbase, and it becomes more of an asset.

Twinking in AO may have been a pain in the ass for many, but you didn't exactly have to be a rocket scientist either. You could get by easily without it. But if you were really into it, it added another aspect to the game to enjoy. AO's twinking was definitely NOT for what i'd consider a "casual" player.

Like you Rayne, I adored that aspect of AO. And, yes, it absolutely was part of the game and class design.

I agree with what you are saying - that to wring every last ounce out of the stat system required a fair bit of thought, stacking buffs that allowed you to use other buffs etc, then swapping out implants to use more, but even the most basic players could quickly learn the system and grab some major buffage to allow them to equip gear - they weren't equipping QL200 gear at lvl 50, but it wasn't hard to get ahead.

To me, that was the beauty of it.

[Noah EQ2]

Originally Posted by Flight

Like you Rayne, I adored that aspect of AO. And, yes, it absolutely was part of the game and class design.

I agree with what you are saying - that to wring every last ounce out of the stat system required a fair bit of thought, stacking buffs that allowed you to use other buffs etc, then swapping out implants to use more, but even the most basic players could quickly learn the system and grab some major buffage to allow them to equip gear - they weren't equipping QL200 gear at lvl 50, but it wasn't hard to get ahead.

To me, that was the beauty of it.

My fondest MMO memories are "squeezing" into gear that never seemed designed for your level. It felt like an accomplishment to be level 20 and put on level 70 gear. Did it make you invincible, maybe against even con and a bit higher but even if you had lvl 70 gear on, lvl 50 mobs would rip you apart.

A system that embraces this like AO could use a mini "interactive tutorial" about how to twink. People would gain the initial concept and develop from there from the community.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Noah EQ2

People would gain the initial concept and develop from there from the community.

I think one of the greatest side effects, was the often necessary interaction with people you didn't know. I made many a doctor and enforcer friend tipping them at trade grid for Iron Circle and Behemoth.

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

I think not being able to backstab or gouge with a staff or cast elaborate spells with a breastplate is pretty reasonable. There is a reason cloth classes wear robes instead of, you know, armor, in a world where they are constantly in mortal danger, after all. Not like it's a concept that hasn't been done.

I think the best example of this is EQ's cleric. Imagine if they were able (through buffs, stats, and spec paths) to equip gear/items that improved thier healing abilities much further, but made them much less durable than thier native plate armor. I enjoyed my cleric immensely, but there were plenty of times when I knew I should be dead where I stood. NOT standing toe to toe and slugging it out with a mob as my mana insanely regenned.

Plate armor should have been a detriment to thier healing. Not a gimp level detriment, but not a huge bonus either. Complete Heal shouldn't have been a spell clerics were handed at a specific level. It should have been an ability they moved thier specialization toward. And it should have been damn tough to obtain.

[Twobit Whore]

People whine enough about the metagaming aspect of WoW.. to make it necessary to even equip your gear would be fucking retarded. Just stop.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

Considering we saw the "equip this to equip that" shit in Diablo I'm pretty sure it's a feature they could avoid if they wanted to. It's a really, REALLY stupid fucking feature, and not at all what I was aiming at, by the way.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

Considering we saw the "equip this to equip that" shit in Diablo I'm pretty sure it's a feature they could avoid if they wanted to. It's a really, REALLY stupid fucking feature, and not at all what I was aiming at, by the way.

Well, I certainly understand what you mean. All i'm saying is that a similar "type" of system without all the shit attached to frustrate players could open up a lot of possibilities.

At the end of the day, theres really not much outside of stats, items, abilities, and scripts that can be considered to build and tune encounters around. Especially when you come to the realisation that the only real "skill" you can possibly associate with an mmo is, more or less, reaction time. Strip away any of those things, and it becomes a shithouse mess.

These aren't "physical" games were talking about. They're things that require forethought, and at least a basic general knowledge of the type of character your playing, and how to play it most effectively. I think thats a big part of the problem. Effective replacing fun.

And thats before you even get into the "peer" aspect of it. Play your character the way thats most effective for the content, and you're a huge asset to those you play with. Play your character in a manner thats fun for you, which may or may not conform to the "norm" depending on how you like to play, and suddenly, you suck at life and should DIAF.

Its opposite ends of a spectrum. And it always will be. Is there a middle ground somewhere that will please everyone? Of course not. But that doesn't mean that the next WoW magnitude game can't at least get a little closer.

[Twobit Whore]

What you are talking about is meta-gaming. Same shit we have been doing for years in WoW, only this time you have taken it from just being the best you can possibly be to requiring it to even equip gear enough to not get laughed at.

It's one thing to do a PuG heroic with someone that doesn't know optimal rotations, doesn't powerlevel JC/BS to equip all the best prismatic gems in the right sockets for bonuses and doesn't use spreadsheets and complex formula to determine how much DPS he could gain from dropping 10ap to gain 5 hit rating. Now you want them to jump through these hoops to even put on a pair of fucking pants.

No. Just no. The system sounds stupid. I have enough headaches everytime I get a single upgrade and have to spend hours calculating the optimal gems and enchants I have to do all over every week.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

I have enough headaches everytime I get a single upgrade and have to spend hours calculating the optimal gems and enchants I have to do all over every week.

I go through the same thing man. I know what you're saying. And i'm NOT saying I disagree.

Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing.

Damned by those who want thier minds and reactions challenged further on a constant basis, or damned by those who don't want to be bothered and get pissed because its required to do so in order to be most effective. You can only go so far in either direction before one camp or the other starts bitching about it.

Which is why I think AO hit a sweet spot with it. If you didn't find any particular enjoyment in spending hours, or even days twinking your toon, you could still do just fine. If you did enjoy it however, the payoff was well worth the effort. But not much moreso than the alternative. At level 25, if me and 4 of my friends halt leveling to twink and you and 4 of your friends kept going, at the end of a week were still going to be in the same general area of content.

I'm not saying that such a system is a necessity. I'm saying that the underlying premise would be an asset rather than a hinderance. Its another aspect of the game that you can CHOOSE to take part in or not.

[Ngruk]

Please trust me when I say this is NOT self promotion. I video about as well as Danuser...
This link will hopefully allow new folks to this thread to not go back 500 pages to have to catch up.
Nothing revealing for the most part, but hopefully it speaks to who and what 38 Studios is and wants to be.

[Caliane]

haha. Nothing wrong with self promotion.

That interview with Sessler was great.

[Quince]

If I didn't know Sessler and saw him on the street I know for a fact I would peg him as a child molester or something. That guy just gives me the creeps.

[GuyJantica]

Was it weird having Adam Sessler talk to you over his shoulder like that the whole time while squared up with the camera? Looked awkward.