Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Dumar

isn't switching roles. it's defining your own roles. give players the freedom to be or try any type of combination they want. they want to try to beat a dungeon as nothing but a cook and blacksmith, then let them. that's what needs to be understood here; the next mmo need not be bounded by these archaic design ideas of classes and roles.

Then 95% of your players become tank-mages or whatever else proves to be the most powerful, and if you aren't one then you aren't included in any reindeer games.

[Dumar]

except there never usually is a 'most powerful' in these types of games. 'most powerful' usually comes up in class-based ones (hello DK). tank mage just sounds good to say, but there many other arch types in uo that could beat tank mages, like dex monkeys.

[Draegan]

Never bring a dumar to a design discussion.

2bit: You're thinking of a Tempest of Set.

[Twobit Whore]

And PoM. And to a lesser extent BS, though they were balanced by needing to melee. Ranged DPS + best heals = just not even fair.

So what do you do? Tweak heals down to uselessness in favor of DPS? Then you just have a current WoW ele shaman or ret paladin. Boost heals and drop DPS to meager levels? Then you have resto druids.

I would suggest the problem isn't the design of the system, it's the people who have played games that follow this system for the last decade or more.

[Flight]

Originally Posted by Tred

Vanguard Bloodmages have been mentioned several times for being fun healers and say what you will about Warhammer Online but Warrior Priests (and I would imagine Disciple of Khaines - I haven't played one) are incredibly fun healers also. I was telling a friend the other day that WP's are Ret Pallies done right.

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

AoC also had healers that could do damage, and had healing abilities tied to doing damage.

Know what people did about them? Bitched at how OP'd they are.

The reason people bitched about ToS'es wasn't anything to do with their healing, it was simply that they could do more DPS than the 'Wizard' class (Demonologist) - though specifically in PvE, not PvP.



The thing is that all the classes outlined above - and many more - really come into their own in a class system that doesn't include dedicated healers.

[Tred]

When people talk about skill based systems vs. class based systems all I can think about is Asheron's Call and how pretty much everyone was either full magic build or a combo build with a weapon skill magic, usually at Life and Item magic for creature debuffs and weapon buffs. Those were pretty much the only two templates I remember anyone that wanted a truly viable character use. People talk about having more choices with a skill based system but I guess I haven't experienced a good skill based MMO to agree with that. I'd love to see an MMO go against that but right now the thought makes me cringe a little bit.

[Ninajrr]

It really depends on the size of the game (how many players it attracts). Shadowbane, for instance, had huge class customizability and a majority of the players took their own creativity to meet their playstyle.

On the other hand, WoW and AC had similar customizability yet most of the community stayed with cookie cutter builds and, in general, didn't deviate much from the norm.

Of course, there is also the fact that in Shadowbane it was advantageous to keep your build to yourself since it was such a PvP centric game, but still, I think that because it didn't sell very well and the population remained low, the information didn't disperse as much.

Do I think a skill based game could remain open and not end up with a bunch of cookie cutter builds? Yeah, probably, but it would be very difficult and I don't know how to even begin to fight that fight.

[Palum]

AC had plenty of 'viable' skill specs, but there wasn't anything exceedingly challenging in that game either. You could actually get along just fine as a gimp triple-def spec melee fighter without even item magic if you spent the time to find the gear required to make it work or always had a friend. There is something to be said about using the odd weapons in AC though, finding perfect maces/spears at dirt cheap prices was often worth the minimal difference in effectiveness.

[FoghornDeadhorn]

It's not hard to visualize a skill-based game that limits what abilities you can use based on the armor and weapons you have equipped.

[Twobit Whore]

But mah freedomz!

[Big W Powah!]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

But mah freedomz!

Had to:

[Dumar]

Originally Posted by FoghornDeadhorn

It's not hard to visualize a skill-based game that limits what abilities you can use based on the armor and weapons you have equipped.

i think the best way would be penalties. let the player equip whatever they want whenever they want, but if you're gonna cast a spell in plate then twirling your hands around to cast in plate gaunts will have drawbacks.

i hate being told no just because some designer is too lazy to either find a way i can or just tells me i can't.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Dumar

i think the best way would be penalties. let the player equip whatever they want whenever they want, but if you're gonna cast a spell in plate then twirling your hands around to cast in plate gaunts will have drawbacks.

i hate being told no just because some designer is too lazy to either find a way i can or just tells me i can't.

Thing is, its already been done. To an extent anyway. Only no one really looks into taking it to the next level, because its only available in a dated game that many pass over for one reason or another.

Funcom really hit a home run with AO's system of using buffed stats to over-equip items well beyond your base abilities. Stacking buffs to equip implants that raised those stats even further, in order to equip even better gear and nanos (re: spells) that some might say you shouldn't be wearing/using, was an everyday part of the game. It was fun and interesting. Many considered it a "mini-game" within the game. Therein lies the problem. It was a bit too complicated for the average gamer, who just wants to jump in and play. That, and you needed to maintain the necessary buffs for the stuff to be fully effective. But even if you couldn't, overequipped items still performed marginally better. However, it involved quite a bit of time and forethought.

I think WoW's "legendary" items are a pretty cool idea that sort of touches on it, except for that they're really only good for twinking alts. A few pieces of gear that grows with you. Nice for burning up excess badges (which is kinda the point), but of no real use to a main character. Especially if you're raiding Naxx and such.

I don't think it would take a lot to develop a system similar to AO's, but not quite as complex and more friendly for the average gamer into other games. I was kind of surprised to learn that FC didn't borrow some of it for AoC. As I said in the AoC thread, I think it would have been a great addition, because it would have added much more meaning to stats and items.

Such a system could have huge benefits for any class of character through specialization paths. It only takes removing the limitations of classes by allowing them to spec into other areas through stats and items.

[Agraza]

In reference to WoW, you're thinking of heirlooms rather than legendaries.

[Palum]

I think I should point out that stacking buff items to equip/activate equipment you shouldn't be able to isn't 'fun' or 'innovative'. It was god damn retarded in AC and is just as stupid a concept in AO or any game since then. The dumb Focusing Stone was the start of 18 piece of gear startup checklists for equipping stuff without Arcane Lore trained. I mean if you really enjoy that sort of thing, go write technical manuals and stop playing MMOs.