Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Flight

You have to be able to actively choose what you loot, much of the time, with no amount of filtering solving the issue

Let's be honest, when was the last time you right clicked on a mob and actively chose not to loot something while solo? Alright, that's done with.

In a group, most of the filters are already in place. You can auto-pass on RR, you can even filter the quality if you like. The NBG roll screen is fine as is as well. And it's not like auto-loot override BoP.

You're overthinking this. It really is that simple. If it's tradeable, it's auto-lootable and hence, a non-issue since if the wrong person loots it, you can always trade it after.

If it's BoP, then naturally auto-loot wouldn't kick in and you'd get a notice. Not being retarded when designing quest items will take care of that situation as well.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Azrayne

Oh I agree entirely in that regard. One thing Blizzard did so well was make their low level content polished and accessable, it doesn't matter how awesome your endgame is if everybody stops playing at level 7 and cancels their subscription.

And I agree that the game needs to evolve into a grouping atmosphere. I said several pages ago that they should start small though. Taking WoW as an example, RFC/SFK/WC/etc...should have been 2~3 mannable. Just make it larger groups of non-elites with the bosses just having 3x a normal mobs hp or something. Whatever, you get the idea.

It's a lot easier in the early game to find one or two other people. It's a pain in the ass in the early game to find a tank, a healer and if your game considers it a 'role', CC, etc...

Moreover, 2 years down the line when hopefully new people are still coming into your game, they all end up skipping the low level dungeons and group content entirely because it requires 5 people and there's maybe 3 people total in the proper level range and one of them is afk.

I mean, one of my favorite passtimes used to be rolling up alts and grouping with one or two friends. Facilitate that.

Oh, and finally, if you do go with an experience->levels (/YAWN) gamestyle, don't split xp so harshly. With 2 people in group, both should still get full reward. 90% each for 3 people, 80% each for 4 people, 70% for 5 people and beyond, no lower. If you violate this rule, you are out of MMO-club and will not be allowed back because it's obvious you hate people who group up.

[Flight]

Originally Posted by Azrayne

Honestly Zehn, I don't understand where your love of solo gameplay comes from. I definately think it needs to be a viable option, but I think grouping should always be preferable.

I'm with Zehn, in the belief that any successful MMO - at this moment in time - needs to have a strong solo experience from 1-max. But it can have a lot more than that.

Small group levelling should be more than an option. XP penalties are traditionally too hard on small groups who level together. They all say, '..hey, two people can kill twice as many mobs faster than one person so just over half the XP is fine..', without taking into account travel time and that there usually isn't enough mob density in areas to support the hypothesis.


Most of what we are saying is based on existing games, but lets think outside the box, again. If story, adventuring, enjoying your skills/abilities and the graphics to go with them are driving your game, rather than the grind to max level it changes a lot of things and we just haven't seen a game like that yet. The Bioware Star Wars game will prolly achieve this.

What I am saying, not particualrly well, is that I want the game levelling experience to be more of an objective than it presently is, compared to end game content, because it has depth and is fun.




And, related to that, I would love to see a skill AND level based character system. Why not have both ? PL all you want, miss all the content you want, its an option - but you are going to gimp your character - at least for a while.

Pllllleeaaaaase make this system and use a time based skill system, a la EvE, to aid character development. Make the skill tree options wide ranging. Make an outline plan for them stretching 5-10 years and a number of expansions into the future, so that the skills are as significant and as big or as small a growth mechanism as your game devs define they need to be. If this is done properly it does not stop guys with a months worth of skill doing end game with the guy with 5 years worth of skills. It might stop you getting into the top 0.01% of guilds, but something is going to.

[Flight]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Let's be honest, when was the last time you right clicked on a mob and actively chose not to loot something while solo? Alright, that's done with.

Many, many times. Always, if inventory is full. The answer to this is going to differ from person to person, according to play style. And there are many pack rats out there.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Then set the filter to only loot things over a certain value, or turn on the filter to only loot green quality+ items. Or set it to only loot if you're under 80% inventory capacity. Unless you're basing your decision on whether or not the item is pretty, chances are a filter can be created. Especially with a healthy modding community. You should see my auto-destroy list. It's like 9000 items long now.

[Fog]

Why does my inventory have a size? Besides roleplaying reasons. Isn't it just nothing but frustration?

[Kuro]

Originally Posted by Fog

Why does my inventory have a size? Besides roleplaying reasons. Isn't it just nothing but frustration?

This.

I always hate my first few hours of gameplay until I can get sufficient bag space. I realize it's "realism" (although how the f*** am I carrying 8 backpacks and fighting?), but if feels more like an arbitrary limit on how long I can "play" the game before having to run back to sell.

I don't why it annoys me so much when there are things that should annoy me more

[FoghornDeadhorn]

I think it's a matter of consistency. Inventory management doesn't seem to fit with any game that doesn't require you to do other RP-like things. At least in Diablo you could go back and forth with great rapidity once you had reached a certain point where the scrolls were cheap. Of course, Diablo had perhaps the most annoying inventory system ever.

[Vatoreus]

I totally agree. Inventory management is a pain in the ass and not fun at all.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Fog

Why does my inventory have a size? Besides roleplaying reasons. Isn't it just nothing but frustration?

Well, the upper limit is usually a database decision. VG had nigh infinite bank space during beta and the results were...interesting. But why there's such a low limit to begin with is yeah, silly. Although ironically this ultimate leads to the bank alt situation anyways. Has to be a better solution somewhere.

It's one of those terrible ideas that keep getting ported from game to game for some really terrible fucking reason that developers think we 'enjoy' making choices between looting and not looting shit.

It's retarded and they need to quit that shit out. In all games for that matter. Find me one review where someone said, "Y'know...Mass Effect was a pretty good game, but it could have been made better if I was only allowed to carry 15 items at a time and had to keep going back to the store to sell off excess loot."

You won't, because Sim Closet Space is a fucking stupid idea.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

You won't, because Sim Closet Space is a fucking stupid idea.

Maybe. However, it's also used as a time and money sink to force people to revisit/use npc vendors more often, and to purchase progressively bigger bags. It also serves as a reason to have cloth/clothing/outfitting classes craft bags, contributing to certain degrees of game depth.

I'm sure this as well as other features will be phased out as games keep seeking to satisfy the increasingly immediate gratification desired by players... until it hurts their subs

And for those complaining about inventory organization, there should be a better way to see/organize items in inventory. Horizons/Istaria used an interchangable visual and list format to be able to see and find inventory items, though they also factored encumbrance into the game for said items.

[Grave]

I think there needs to be a limit for technical reasons if nothing else. What would happen if a character ran around with 10,000 items on him all the time? I'm not an expert on server stuff, but it seems like that would create performance issues for that player if no one else. [[Edit: As Zehn said said above regarding VG, that's what I get for sitting here with the reply window open while I afk.]]

I agree though, it seems like the point of a limited inventory is to add some type of challenge to the game, and yet it doesn't really. I guess it does help to impede excessive farming/botting, but not much. It also serves to limit the amount of money a new player can make at the start of the game since they're bringing back less vendor loot. Is that worth frustrating the player? Probably not.

At the very least, have a separate inventory for quest items and a separate inventory for tradeskill items and mats. This not only helps clear up loot inventory space, but also clues the player in that those other items could be sold to tradeskillers or are important for quests, etc.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Well, you don't necessarily have to go that far. Quest items can easily be baked right into your quest journal. And how WoW differentiates Tskill items from vendor trash is pretty good. There's plenty of other shit that doesn't need to take up inventory space though.

Oh, and fuck resist gear. That shit has never been a good idea in any game that's used it.

Anyways...I'm pretty much anti-anything that breaks game flow. Which is why I have such a raging hardon for hating on things like looting, inventory management, mana vs. energy, etc...etc...

Originally Posted by UnchainedAcolyte

Maybe...

There's better methods of doing so. If your idea of a good money sink is annoying the shit out of your playerbase (HERE'S LOOKING AT YOU DURABILITY) then you have already failed as a developer.

A good money sink is something players should want to spend money on, not something they have to. Mounts/collectable pets are a good start. Player housing is a fucking money sink goldmine. Shit like that. And in game arcade/ccg system or something.

As for making tradeskills useful...well...maybe when I'm drunk I'll explain how tradeskills have been continually fucked up by developers that have no clue what the shit they're doing.

As for me, It's noon so you know what that means kiddies. It's Rock Band time!

Edit:

Just got this neg for a post in the EQ fanboy thread

M Leveling up in WoW is some of the most boring, dumbing down the process to trained monkey level and discouraging the premise of grouping is horrible idea. Not only is it boring as shit, but you'll lose and frustrate customers.

I should really know better then to interject logic into circle jerks. You know how I said that they should encourage grouping by gradually pushing players into it by doing small group content before really getting into the tank-healer-dps paradigm that we've come to know and love?

Who would have thought that by encouraging low level players to group up I'm discouraging grouping. Jesus what astonishing logic. No wonder developers don't listen to the unwashed masses. That level of stupid makes my teeth hurt.

[UnchainedAcolyte]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

There's better methods of doing so.

For money sinks, definitely. Part of the craft of designing, however, is in having enough minor sinks, both time and money, to make content and progression meaningful, and to have other players have some sort of part in that directly or indirectly (hi2u grouping and crafting, ie, bags). The sinks shouldn't be obvious to the average player, though, and I'd argue that part of the reason for time/resource sinks at the beginning is to allow new players to acclimate to the game.

If everything boils down to a money sink (though it's arguable most time sinks do ultimately), then it becomes a blatantly obvious single-minded grind to the playerbase as a whole, and encourages gold selling even more if your wall is purely/predominantly a money sink.

Time sinks might be annoying, but those that encourage direct or indirect player interaction are necessary in an MMO.


A secondary problem with finding things to purchase with money, etc. outside of preconceived sinks is the constant requirement to add new content on an ongoing basis outside of what is being developed for patches and expansions.

I'd agree on the player housing and several other options for reasons to encourage players not only to accumulate wealth, but play the game and experience the content. The next logical step for Blizzard is to make achievement points spendable (for combat and non-combat items), then re-attainable.

[Teljair]

We need an in-game casino so we can gamble all of our hard earned gold playing poker & blackjack.