Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Flight]

Originally Posted by Ukerric

DAoC had normal zoning. Just like EQ (and yes, they usually disguised their zone-in with a twisting tunnel or passage, so you'd vanish into the dungeon as soon as you turned the corner). And, since they didn't had instancing, you found yourself with everybody else inside anyway.

DaoC later introduced a system of mission instances for both groups and solo play.


Amazing to think it was only itemized up to lvl 20 or so, certainly dungeon wise, at launch. Imagine the outcry if an MMO launched in that state today.

[Lourdin]

The problem with levels today is that they mean nothing. In EQ when you got a level, it took a long time and it because of that, it really had a feeling of satisfaction tied to it. I think a game that only had 20 levels to the cap would be easier for a developer to build. It is enough levels to allow for a learning curve, and it would make the content/lore more viable because it can be condensed to focus on a smaller spectrum then a larger clusterfuck of crap.

One of the great factors of early EQ dungeons and zones is they catered to a broad array of levels. They were used for multiple levels of progression and not just for a 2 levels. People could spend 10 levels in there, learning the zones, the encounters, AND the lore. People that are in an area for 1-2 levels are not going to take the time to enjoy the lore and immerse themselves into the game beyond the hack and slash. No reason to.

[Erumaron]

Originally Posted by Lourdin

The problem with levels today is that they mean nothing. In EQ when you got a level, it took a long time and it because of that, it really had a feeling of satisfaction tied to it. I think a game that only had 20 levels to the cap would be easier for a developer to build. It is enough levels to allow for a learning curve, and it would make the content/lore more viable because it can be condensed to focus on a smaller spectrum then a larger clusterfuck of crap.

One of the great factors of early EQ dungeons and zones is they catered to a broad array of levels. They were used for multiple levels of progression and not just for a 2 levels. People could spend 10 levels in there, learning the zones, the encounters, AND the lore. People that are in an area for 1-2 levels are not going to take the time to enjoy the lore and immerse themselves into the game beyond the hack and slash. No reason to.

I was thinking of a reply along these lines but he said it far better than I would have. If you still wanted a massive game world you could make people actually have to adventure and not just sit in one zone at a time. Pretty much everybody on these boards will talk about their fond memories of traveling from Greater Faydark to the Commandlands and how epic it was the first time...so reward people for doing it. Sure, the actual awe inspired feeling of your first MMO might not be recaptured but if there's a system in place that keeps exp ticking as you make your grand trek across the world in enough quantities to make it worth the player's time...it's a hell of a lot better than the route WoW has taken for leveling. Steal phasing from WoW and make random generated phase encounters/non-random story progression while you make the trip and you have content to keep action along way.

[Composter]

I've been thinking a lot about fun vs. enjoyment. Some would say they are the same, but I would differ. I know that Fun is the big buzzword nowadays, and that it's the big design motivation for most companies. However, thinking back to all the games I have had "fun" playing, I can honestly say that I didn't get much enjoyment out of a lot of them. Fun is shallow, cheap, and quick. Enjoyment is deep, invested, and long-term.

Looking back at Everquest (and not through the rose-colored glasses), I know that I did not have "fun" most of the time I played it. There were definitely moments of fun, but mostly it felt like work. However, I must say that I enjoyed playing EQ. The investment that I put into it, of time, of energy, of emotions, made it more rewarding than fun to me. There was a deep feeling of satisfaction that I would get gaining a single level in EQ, that was not even matched by dinging 60 my first time in WOW. However, I most definitely had more fun on a day to day basis in WOW (until it got boring).

Maybe the difference between fun and enjoyment can be analogized in TV shows. I watch ATHF for fun. I watch LOST for enjoyment.

I know everyone nowadays wants to have "fun," but what I want more than anything right now is a game that I enjoy.

[Zarcath]

Design for reusability. Content during leveling doesn't matter because designers don't make it matter.

How do you re-use old content? Difficultly settings AKA heroics. Also, level specific achievements.

All of WoW's old world instances/raids is obsolete. All of those man-hours spent designing the zone, creating the art, putting in sound, scripting encounters, it's all wasted now. But what if you could do BWL on heroic? epic? fabled? Give a special title for doing it at 80? Give an even more special title for doing it at 60? If there were a set of achievements that required you to be level 60 and would award you a legacy items, people would level up 60's and clear all of the old content.

You heard it here first. Heroic MC/BWL/AQ that rewards you with Tier Legacy armor. People would do it and they would fucking love it.

[Grave]

I wouldn't want to level up another character to 60 just to do that, and I would be pissed if my main character could not get the level 60 title just because I was already 80 or beyond whenever they introduced this.

It's a good idea, but I say look at FFXI's deleveling for certain encounters, combined with the way EQ2 scales down gear and abilities during mentoring. Combine those, and let max level players do the level 60, 70, etc challenges and then I'm game.

[Erumaron]

Originally Posted by Grave

I wouldn't want to level up another character to 60 just to do that, and I would be pissed if my main character could not get the level 60 title just because I was already 80 or beyond whenever they introduced this.

It's a good idea, but I say look at FFXI's deleveling for certain encounters, combined with the way EQ2 scales down gear and abilities during mentoring. Combine those, and let max level players do the level 60, 70, etc challenges and then I'm game.

Add to that BoA/Level Req style scaling (your MC loot is worth while at 80, if properly itemized) on stats on the items and you have TONS of new content.

[Zarcath]

Originally Posted by Grave

I wouldn't want to level up another character to 60 just to do that, and I would be pissed if my main character could not get the level 60 title just because I was already 80 or beyond whenever they introduced this.

It's a good idea, but I say look at FFXI's deleveling for certain encounters, combined with the way EQ2 scales down gear and abilities during mentoring. Combine those, and let max level players do the level 60, 70, etc challenges and then I'm game.

Yeah, I'd be upset to if my 80 wasn't eligible.

You know, it would be interesting if you could create Level 60's and 70's from the get go, if you have a level 80 (much like DK's). Except these characters couldn't gain experience, they'd be stuck at 60/70 forever. Then you could do old content, collect a set of level 60/70 gear. Get your Legacy gear, twink it to your main, twink it to alts.

I'd prefer an open scaling level/gear/encounter system, but I imagine something like that would have to be designed into the game from the get go.

Originally Posted by Erumaron

Add to that BoA/Level Req style scaling (your MC loot is worth while at 80, if properly itemized) on stats on the items and you have TONS of new content.

Dude, that would probably be really easy to implement, given the ilvl formulas. Just make like 5-6 different templates (dps/caster/tank/dps) and grab some old world items, turn them into legacy items and attach that ilvl template to it.

[Tyen]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

Ice Comet was 1110~1120 originally. The nerf came ~3 years later or so. Again, the previous ice based nuke prior to the spell changes did 300 damage and rend was only doing about ~750 if I recall. Conflag was in the low 600's.

Of course that all meant dick when Kunark came out and all we ever casted from then on was Lure.

Anyways...

But yeah, the big thing about ice comet, not including it's ridiculous damage amount, was how you got it. The Staff of the Wheel quest was ridiculous fun, you didn't mind that you got dick all for EXP for doing it because it resulted in fun, wanted rewards.

Nobody gave a shit about the name. I mean, yeah, spells should have cool names to begin with I feel. And if you want to attach lore and roleplay value to them, fine. But you don't need to keep coming up with new "'Somebody on staff's characters name' 'synonym for fireball' of 'synonym for ownage'" every time the spell ranks up.

Let's make it look really silly. Let's take "Hamstring" in WoW. The name gets the job done. Would you -really- feel more like a ferocious orc because instead of hamstringing your opponant you were executing, "Bitties Dastardly Strike at the Semitendinosus"?

Again, if you're going to add roleplay value to your spells/abilities, make it in how you introduce them to your players by attaching quests to acquiring the spell.

Not by calling it, 'Zehn's Miraculous Melody of Monotonous Meandering' and saying, "SEE! IMMERSION! DON'T YOU FEEL IMMERSED?!"

Good post`

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by Zarcath

Design for reusability. Content during leveling doesn't matter because designers don't make it matter

Well, the job system is one easy way. I'm an altaholic so to speak and so I've done the 1-30+ game about 13 times now. Most are 70+ now.

I think the general consensus on heroic old world shit was that we'd much rather development time/dollars be spent on creating new zones rather then revamping old ones.

Because honestly, Naxx was the result of them adding a 'heroic' mode to the old Naxx and look how that turned out. Yeah it was nice to see the old girl again but she's got a beer gut and smells like ass.

All things considered, I'd much rather them make sure to add far more gimic items and flavor loot to the old world zones. If anything, put a semi-uncommon black drake from Onyxia, a whole collection of mini-me pets from Molten Core, etc...

The faction achievement and mounts from ZG make me willing to keep going back with some friends and pound that shit out but if we skip a week or two because I'm just not feelin' it I don't feel like I've missed out on something.

Monster mode I'm also in favor of. Some dream-state NPC allowing you to play as Arugal defending against a group of 'PC's' and etc...

I'd also like to see them re-tune the low level instances to be duo/trio-able. Getting 5 people together to do SFK now is damn near impossible, but two-three people teaming up? Considering how many couples/RL friends/etc...play this game that's not quite as much of a stretch. Ideally they'd remake up through the last expansion this way.

[Toxxulian]

All they need to do is add some type of alternative gear set like what eq2 has, who here wouldn't want to go back to mc or bwl and get some felheart to put on? Obviously it wouldn't effect your stats but it would be a way for your to go back and experience the old content and be able to change the way your character looks.

I don't know about you, but after wearing the same gear for a couple of months it would be nice to change it up without effecting your stats. Also they could get rid of the class restrictions so a mage could wear warlock stuff, or just combined a couple so warriors aren't running around in cloth, they could easily make magisters or felheart be warlock,mage,priest.

[Zehn - Vhex]

LOTRO had a neat feature I think where you could 'save' your appearance even with gear swaps.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

LOTRO had a neat feature I think where you could 'save' your appearance even with gear swaps.

yeah, lotro has seperate item slots that give you the visual of whatever you equip in them, but not the stats. it's the same thing as in eq2, except lotro gives you multiple 'sets' of slots so you can have a couple different looks.

[James]

Originally Posted by Zehn - Vhex

But yeah, the big thing about ice comet, not including it's ridiculous damage amount, was how you got it. The Staff of the Wheel quest was ridiculous fun, you didn't mind that you got dick all for EXP for doing it because it resulted in fun, wanted rewards.

Pfft. Real men researched it from the runes that dropped pre-Quest.

[Zehn - Vhex]

Originally Posted by James

Pfft. Real men researched it from the runes that dropped pre-Quest.

I was talking about the stone with right click identify, newb.