Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Greyskye]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

that had crap to do with the names mentioned nearly as much as it had to do with the company and their approach to making games. They deliver polished, COMPLETE product, regardless of who's oveseeing the design it's about spit and polish in WoW, and in Blizzard and on that they've never missed IMO.
Now having said that I also was amazed to see WoW launched with what I thought was a legitimate lack of high end content, content that was added that I thought should have been there from day 1.


I'll respond to other parts of this later if I can..

QFT!

[Gaereth]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Like to hear why you stopped being a fan of a guy because a design team 'nerfed' monks.
Love to hear and see details of his blind spots as well.

Blackguard is a newb, that much I would agree on....

Well...I wasn't really a fan before. The not a fan comment is more along the lines of..."Yeah, I tried the sage and marmalade covered spam. Not a fan."

He was one of the most visible monks because of Mobhunter yet he referenced the hours and hours of internal testing they did on monks and mitigation and pointed dramatically to the fact that monks needed nerfed. The blind spot is he took the testing they did at face value and said 'Yep....its good because they said so!!". Blind faith in someone your looking for a job from....you know....the Absor method.

His lack of understanding about the errors in the testing and the 'adjustment' itself (it has been repealed, etc, etc) showed either an astounding ignorance of his own class or an attitude of unconcerned largess directed from on high.

It was years ago...but its kinda like the community stuff people talk about all the time. Do something bad, or stupid, or just plain ignorant in these communities and its entirely possible that it will follow you around for years.

It doesn't mean he isn't a great guy or all the other blah blah blah rah rah crap....you just asked me why I 'wasn't a fan' and I felt, since you asked me directly, a direct answer was warranted.

[cyanbane]

Originally Posted by Blackguard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngruk
Blackguard is a newb, that much I would agree on....

Yeah I was totally tempted to call BG a newb also because of his "6" posts on here, then I realized I think I only have 5.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

He was one of the most visible monks because of Mobhunter yet he referenced the hours and hours of internal testing they did on monks and mitigation and pointed dramatically to the fact that monks needed nerfed. The blind spot is he took the testing they did at face value and said 'Yep....its good because they said so!!". Blind faith in someone your looking for a job from....you know....the Absor method.

His lack of understanding about the errors in the testing and the 'adjustment' itself (it has been repealed, etc, etc) showed either an astounding ignorance of his own class or an attitude of unconcerned largess directed from on high.

It was years ago...but its kinda like the community stuff people talk about all the time. Do something bad, or stupid, or just plain ignorant in these communities and its entirely possible that it will follow you around for years.

It doesn't mean he isn't a great guy or all the other blah blah blah rah rah crap....you just asked me why I 'wasn't a fan' and I felt, since you asked me directly, a direct answer was warranted.

Ok stop right here I am going to say the same thing I said before. I hear your complaints, but until you can specifically reference something, until I see a quote or link to validate what you 'think' he said or did, it's all hearsay.

I know I am not alone in this. Things like this, topics, tend to grow into something that is so far from the truth as time goes by that it's entirely possible we could argue this with neither of us being even remotely close to the actual facts. It happens in the 'real world' all the time, and in the MMO space, especially in the MMO communities it's rampant.

I've been a pretty hardcore player since the beta days of UO, so as community member I think I am qualified to make these observations. But more importantly to me in threads like this is talking, arguing, or defending people and comments when the initial poster(s) are assigning a stance or a view/comments to someone that when all is said and done represent nothing even remotely close to the person they are attributed to.

It fills threads and keeps people posting for sure, but when it's based on things that are not factual it's a waste of our time that could be spent talking about things that truly are relevant to the game space or our company.

Oh and in the end none of it matters because Danuser was hired on to move the Founders car every two hours when the parking meter runs out, and fetch him diet coke......

[redjunkopera]

O

k stop right here I am going to say the same thing I said before. I hear your complaints, but until you can specifically reference something,

What is Gaereth making that Blackguard is going to want to buy?

[Moorgard Mobhunter]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

His lack of understanding about the errors in the testing and the 'adjustment' itself (it has been repealed, etc, etc) showed either an astounding ignorance of his own class or an attitude of unconcerned largess directed from on high.

It was years ago...but its kinda like the community stuff people talk about all the time. Do something bad, or stupid, or just plain ignorant in these communities and its entirely possible that it will follow you around for years.

Though any response from me runs the risk of looking like I'm backpedaling over what I said in the distant past, since you are addressing specific perceptions about me as a person and a player, I will give it a shot anyway.

I wasn't working at SOE at the time of the EQ monk nerf. As I recall, the only contact from SOE I had on the subject was via email with Hartsman, who shared with me some of the numbers they were using to base the changes on. He didn't do that to win me over or use me as some company shill; he did it because he knew I cared about the topic and we had a degree of trust between us. I didn't disclose the data at the time because doing so would have been a violation of his trust, and whether that information was shared elsewhere was not my call to make.

You haven't linked to any specific posts I made at the time, which likely would have been on Monkly Business. While some felt that I came across as a nerf apologist, I was just giving my opinion about the changes based on the data available and my own experience in the game. In terms of my playstyle (dedicated player with good gear in a raiding guild), the nerf had little impact on me. There were plenty of folks on the boards at the time who strongly disagreed. The popular thing to do would have been to keep quiet, but that really wasn't my style (obviously). I still don't accept the ad hominem argument that anyone who disagrees with an anti-SOE opinion is automatically a corporate kiss-ass, even though that mindset exists on message boards to this day.

Anyway, feel free to dig up my actual posts on the subject. I could very well have come off as a jackass at the time, or maybe not; without the actual posts and their context, everything is perception.

If indeed I was a jackass (which I am more than willing to admit could have been the case) and someone chooses to harbor ill will over it, nothing I say is likely to change that fact. But I'd like to think that all of us have grown up and learned a lot over the years, and for good or ill I know much more about this industry than I did back in the day. My intent is to use that experience to GMG's advantage, while moving Mr. Schilling's car several times a day and hopefully teaching him proper formatting and punctuation.

[Gaereth]

You asked me why I wasn't a fan. You didn't ask me to provide supporting evidence at trial Ngruk. Do I have to supply statisticly accurate and factual reasons for being a Red Sox or perhaps a Broncos fan as well?

You asked a question and I answered. However, if you are requiring more, ummm, declarative explanations that provide case studies and the like I would prefer if that was laid out in advance so I might prepare.

I don't harbor ill will but I do tend to be a black and white guy in most things. When people do things that catagorize themselves in certain ways its not up to me to research ways to disprove said catagorization...it is up to them to prove they don't belong there anymore. Thats life...thats games....its just reality.

[Gaereth]

It doesn't mean Moorgard isn't a great guy or doesn't have great ideas and great capabilities at all.

It just means I am from Missouri.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

It doesn't mean Moorgard isn't a great guy or doesn't have great ideas and great capabilities at all.

It just means I am from Missouri.

Hehe. My main point is this. If I am going to discuss people on this forum, defend them, I would do so only if the attacker has credible evidence to support their opinion beyond "I think the guys a jack ass".

That doesn't mean you can't, obviously you can say anything you want. What I meant to say was that I will engage in give and take about people in GMG if the people on the other end can offer up evidence that the person they don't like really does feel the way they are saying he does, or their stance is one that's publicly known.

People here have commented on both Ryan and Steve, and their opinions of them, but I am going to guess that the opinions they have were formed on posts made long ago, that the person stating their opinions now can't even come close to remembering.

It's a lot like the fishing stories. On Monday you tell the guys at work about the 2pd bass you caught. On Friday it's a 5 pdr. A year from then it's bordering on the guiness book of world records in size. When you get called on it you've talked about it so much you almost believe it was a 20 pdr....

I will say this about both Steve and Ryan. They are good people. That doesn't mean jack to you guys as players, what you care about is their impact on the game, and the communities they will be creating and overseeing. I was a member of both of the communitites they ran, and I will to my dying day defend them as exceptional community managers with unlimited passion for their games and their communities. That combo led me to believe I could not find two better people to be at the front of the line when GMG roles out it's company website community, and the game website community.

[Gaereth]

I understand completely, but I never said he was a jackass. I merely stated I wasn't a fan since he supported the monk nerf.

Its not based on him being an ass on forums, a specific post, or anything. It was based on the fact that he supported something that was untenable and very poorly implemented because someone told him it was right.

He supported the nerf, which he freely admits, even though it was badly implemented and eventually repealed due to its flaws, based upon insider information from SOE.

He had the opportunity to be the mouthpiece of a very large group of people and present hours and hours and hours and hours of real world testing by very respected individuals who had a differing viewpoint.

But he got some info and went...."Ok".

-shrug- Its a 4 year old argument so post specifics are probably more a less a lost cause....but I don't think its really necessary.

I am free and open to Moorgard showing me the money and blowing my socks off. I will, however, not feel bad if I use a past history that directly affected me and my enjoyment of a hobby as an level that I hope not to be presented with again.

[Tyen]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

You asked me why I wasn't a fan. You didn't ask me to provide supporting evidence at trial Ngruk.

Just so retort on what you just said...

You are expecting not to give out facts to back up your statements?

[Gaereth]

Well...what facts do you need other than he supported the monk nerf based partially on inside info from SOE to account for my non-fandom??

-shrug- Really didn't think it was that 'fact' intensive. :P

[DickTrickle]

I think the real issue here is that he was overly reliant on SOE's tests, not on how he presented himself to others. Perhaps he was naive back then and figured that since it was the company that made the game, they should know. Obviously, that turned out not to be the case. People like Gaerath who were negatively impacted by his unwillingness to critically analyse SOE's test should still be cautious, because the same thing could easily repeat itself. For example, the community presents information that conflicts with the company's information and instead of really finding out which is the truth, just assumes the company is right. That's where I think still being cautious about how he approaches such things is still quite valid. Now, maybe he won't makes those mistakes, but that's for the future to decide.

[Duppin]

God damn.

Some of you people with all of this built up angst over things that happened in EQ's time need to LET IT THE FUCK GO ALREADY.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Duppin

God damn.

Some of you people with all of this built up angst over things that happened in EQ's time need to LET IT THE FUCK GO ALREADY.

Hehe. Ok ease back a bit

I was explaining in a confusing way that if we were going to debate who said what, when, why, where and how, that it's a lot easier said and done with facts. 'Nooz came on and said he was supportive of the change, but the more important point, and my real argument against the initial opinion was that Steve was a PLAYER at that time, not a community guy or dev, but a player.

That to me changes the dynamics of it all. Sure he was a monk, sure he had some influence on whether or not it happened, but he did not work internally so he didn't have the whole picture in front of him, nor was he a member of the design team with intimate knowledge of the change and it's ramifications world wide.

The two positions, player/designer, are in such complete and totally different worlds, regardless of how 'informed' or up to date that 'player' is.

After getting to know this system and process over the years the more amazing thing to me is that a studio lead actually allowed a player to weigh in that heavily on a game change. Speaks to very different things about both people involved and the main one is one of the reasons I wanted Steve to be part of GMG from the start.