Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

Haven't been a fan of Moorgard since the monk nerf and his obvious blind spots. Blackguard seems a decent enough fellow for a pissy gnome.

Like to hear why you stopped being a fan of a guy because a design team 'nerfed' monks.
Love to hear and see details of his blind spots as well.

Blackguard is a newb, that much I would agree on....

[RuhiRZ]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

But a nice launch doesn't mean going out of your way to become unethical. So what you are saying is we will have to wait to see if Blizzard becomes unethical with this latest expansion and as time goes on?

In the end you are still butt hurt about having to camp Ragefire for 70+ hrs... admit it.

[Blackguard]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Blackguard is a newb, that much I would agree on....

[Genjiro]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Like to hear why you stopped being a fan of a guy because a design team 'nerfed' monks.
Love to hear and see details of his blind spots as well.

Blackguard is a newb, that much I would agree on....

Moorgard would talk about raid content and game mechanics and have no clue what he was talking about, and this was before he even got promoted, still shake my head at that one. Once he started posting outside of his blog section on the EQ2 forums, he made himself look foolish talking about something which he knew nothing about or apparently had any hands on experience with. Gallenite and Blackguard are great guys though, seriously, I think Scott has more of a clue than about anyone in the industry right now.

Look for people who have experience in the high end spectrum of gaming as players, it worked out pretty well for Blizzard. It was sad, as my time as guildleader of Ardent Legion in EQ2, we would do some beta testing of xpacs and find first hand how completely clueless some devs were about raiding and high end content. The guys like Rob Pardo (warrior in LoS/lead producer of WoW), Tigole, and Furor, those guys have basically seen most of everything out there that raid content has offered. When designing new dynamic content, would you rather go to someone who punched in 1s and 0s for a living with no practical firsthand experience (our experience with early EQ2 testing)? Or would you rather go to the guys who have seen it from the gamers perspective at the highest level, to come up with new ways to develop challenging content players have not seen before?

It would be like asking who has more insight into the game of baseball, someone who played the game for 20 years or some sports writer/statistician who has only seen the game from the bleachers. Same problem is going on with Vanguard development right now, you have someone like Jerrith (who is an experienced gamer) as the bright spot in a sea of incompetence with respect to guys like Talisker doing the class design.

[Khalan]

What he said ^^

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Genjiro

Moorgard would talk about raid content and game mechanics and have no clue what he was talking about, and this was before he even got promoted, still shake my head at that one. Once he started posting outside of his blog section on the EQ2 forums, he made himself look foolish talking about something which he knew nothing about or apparently had any hands on experience with. Gallenite and Blackguard are great guys though, seriously, I think Scott has more of a clue than about anyone in the industry right now. .

First off before we go down the media route, I won't do give and take unless you can give me exact examples and quotes from actual posts. At this point we might be at 500 degrees of seperation from what he ever actually said.

That being said, I bet if I go back and research posts you've made about anything, your opinions changed, and maybe in some cases you flipped completely. In many cases we all do that.

I would also tell you that Danuser is pure good people. He and I, I know for a fact, will bump heads when it comes to some design issues, because there are things I still approach with 'How cool would it be if" and he knows immediately that it's the inner gamer in me talking about something that has no technical chance in hell of being realized. This guy gets it from a community standpoint, and I say that because I was a member of that community for a long time.

Also I'd like to know how his voicing opinions makes him a 'bad guy'? I know him, but not nearly as well as I will, but I would guess I know him, outside of Blackguard, better than anyone on this board. Good people are just that. I might not agree, or think their opinions suck, but that doesn't change them to bad people, just makes them passionate about their opinions.

Originally Posted by Genjiro

Look for people who have experience in the high end spectrum of gaming as players, it worked out pretty well for Blizzard. It was sad, as my time as guildleader of Ardent Legion in EQ2, we would do some beta testing of xpacs and find first hand how completely clueless some devs were about raiding and high end content. The guys like Rob Pardo (warrior in LoS/lead producer of WoW), Tigole, and Furor, those guys have basically seen most of everything out there that raid content has offered. When designing new dynamic content, would you rather go to someone who punched in 1s and 0s for a living with no practical firsthand experience (our experience with early EQ2 testing)? Or would you rather go to the guys who have seen it from the gamers perspective at the highest level, to come up with new ways to develop challenging content players have not seen before? .

Do you know how incredibly small that spectrum of players is when compared to the size of the entire audience? I am not saying you discount that experience, but when dealing with upper end content I agree, having players (of which I am one) who've been there and done that is certainly attractive. But alot of times, most times, we as hard core players have tunnel vision and narrow focus about what it is we 'think' would be awesome. Most times there is zero foundation for that to actually work technically, but it sounds cool as hell doesn't it?
Content, high or low end, has to be the creation of a team. That team has to know and understand that first level content and the experience, and 60th level content, BOTH must be compelling, exciting and fun.

Originally Posted by Genjiro

It would be like asking who has more insight into the game of baseball, someone who played the game for 20 years or some sports writer/statistician who has only seen the game from the bleachers. Same problem is going on with Vanguard development right now, you have someone like Jerrith (who is an experienced gamer) as the bright spot in a sea of incompetence with respect to guys like Talisker doing the class design.

I don't think that's an even remotely close comparison, but we can agree to disagree. There is an immense amount of insight difference between two PLAYERS that have played much less players and others. My concern is in harnessing talented, creative, passionate people looking to make THEE game and not THEIR game.

[Eduardo]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

There is an immense amount of insight difference between two PLAYERS that have played much less players and others. My concern is in harnessing talented, creative, passionate people looking to make THEE game and not THEIR game.

That, is inspiring.

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

But alot of times, most times, we as hard core players have tunnel vision and narrow focus about what it is we 'think' would be awesome.

So true. Let me quote something old:

"The more experienced players are in existing MMOGs, the more they can't help but think about the whole genre in terms of what they already know."

It's both good and bad, as "influence" isn't a bad thing on its own. Isn't the same (and successful) WoW one of the most derivative games out there?

I'm sure Tigole helped to solve some important shortcoming. But he is also responsible of the problems that affect the current "endgame" and raid content limitations.

It is also true that on a gaming forum using "scapegoats" is the norm, when a MMO is instead the result of a whole team. It's very hard to understand the real "weight" and merit of one developer in a project. In particular because many have learnt to shut up and avoid risks due to exposition.

My concern is in harnessing talented, creative, passionate people looking to make THEE game and not THEIR game.

That's also a very important concept, not at all rhetorical.

[WillzZz]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Do you know how incredibly small that spectrum of players is when compared to the size of the entire audience? I am not saying you discount that experience, but when dealing with upper end content I agree, having players (of which I am one) who've been there and done that is certainly attractive. But alot of times, most times, we as hard core players have tunnel vision and narrow focus about what it is we 'think' would be awesome. Most times there is zero foundation for that to actually work technically, but it sounds cool as hell doesn't it?

I think you're taking it a bit literally. What I took from his suggestion is that Tigole, Pardo, and Furor were all much better at every avenue of gameplay, for having understood the underlying concepts that much better than the average developer.

Still, your point is taken. I imagine plenty of players would rather delve into their own little raiding world and leave the rest to rot. Take a look at the two best quest lines in the game (Westfall Defias, and Onyxia access) to put that argument to rest.

[Moorgard Mobhunter]

Originally Posted by WillTR

What I took from his suggestion is that Tigole, Pardo, and Furor were all much better at every avenue of gameplay, for having understood the underlying concepts that much better than the average developer.

It is entirely possible that, had you asked those folks (or myself) back when they were just players whether they thought that to be the case, they would have agreed with you.

It is also very likely that, if you asked them the same question today, their response would be very different.

[Andric d'Regor]

Hi Moorguard - was wondering if you'd gone to GMG - Blackguard as well?

[Genjiro]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

I would also tell you that Danuser is pure good people. He and I, I know for a fact, will bump heads when it comes to some design issues, because there are things I still approach with 'How cool would it be if" and he knows immediately that it's the inner gamer in me talking about something that has no technical chance in hell of being realized. This guy gets it from a community standpoint, and I say that because I was a member of that community for a long time.

Call me crazy, but you get treated just a tad better than the average Joe/community member does, so I would guess you get a much bigger dose of "good people" than the rest of us do considering your affiliation with SOE. It wasn't my imagination when entire threads would be filled with the basically "wow you're a jerk" responses to his punch-counterpunch correspondences with the EQ2 community. Gets it from a community standpoint? Blackguard does, Gallenite does, those like Moorgard and Faarwolf never did. I will say that from what I read of his contribution to the lore, that it was very well done and he does seem like a talented writer in that regard. If there was an issue with the community, Blackguard was more the type to sit down and facilitate good discussion since we were all looking to make the game better, whereas Moorgard was armed with a giant Louisville slugger at the picket lines ready to crack the skulls of any dissenters. (Ok that's a lame analogy, but you get the point.) Anyways, maybe he is a great guy that you have the luxury of knowing better than the rest of us, we're unfortunate casualities to sometimes seeing the written word out of context, and on a place like the internet perception trumps reality every time (and that perception was not flattering).

Do you know how incredibly small that spectrum of players is when compared to the size of the entire audience? I am not saying you discount that experience, but when dealing with upper end content I agree, having players (of which I am one) who've been there and done that is certainly attractive. But alot of times, most times, we as hard core players have tunnel vision and narrow focus about what it is we 'think' would be awesome. Most times there is zero foundation for that to actually work technically, but it sounds cool as hell doesn't it?
Content, high or low end, has to be the creation of a team. That team has to know and understand that first level content and the experience, and 60th level content, BOTH must be compelling, exciting and fun.

Sure, I understand that, and I also think think that developers are so out of touch with their games and the associated playerbase for the most part these days (/wave Vanguard), that they could use a couple of those guys who do have that kind of insight to help them out in that regard. Also, consider that those guys who were all high end raiders were part of the team that has developed the most polished and complete low level experience of any game to date. Maybe you never personally played WoW, but go level up a character to 10 if you haven't, and compare it to any game out (or in beta...)and come back and tell me which one is even in the same universe that WoW is at those levels in regards to meaningful gameplay and content. I played with Pardo and Tigole for years in LoS (they were even crazy enough to trust me as their raid puller), so from a personal/design standpoint I know that as a player and developer that those guys "get it" concerning content at all levels--I think if WoW is any one thing, it is a testament to that fact.

Regardless of what people think of the more controversial points like instancing, leveling curve, and the numerous other "cans of worms" that have been opened before, there really is no denying that the game has fun gameplay, a "hook" in the first couple levels, and most importantly actual "freedom" that other games tout but fail to deliver upon. WoW has changed the stakes of gaming, and it's going to be the killer for games like Vanguard in my opinion. Who wants to go back to a game where as a healer all you get is X healing spell at level 10, 20 and 30, and that's all....when in a game like WoW you have the freedom (what you call the compelling part of design in the quote above) to determine how much those same heals actually heal for, talents to speed up cast time, mana cost, or the threat that those same spells produce? We want more freedom, not less, I hope you guys developing keep these things in mind for the future.

Back on track though, we talked to the devs early on in EQ2 about the direction the game was taking, and as high level players who had a long history in Norrath from EQ1, we were sure as hell right (hate to say it, but we told you so..). Nobody gave a crap about the Bloodline Chronicles or Desert of Flames. Echoes of Faydwer was what a few of us suggested eons ago, and look at how anticipated it was when it was announced (evidenced by the endless replies of "omg finally" or "bout fkn time"). Consider that most of us had years of making our home in Everquest, you blew it up, stripped the gods out, and they expected us to just forget about it with some bland as hell storyline of Qeynos vs Freeport? People didn't care about that stuff, they wanted to know what happened to their favorite stomping grounds in Kelethin, Unrest, or Castle Mistmoore. Not about some lame completely-out-of-left-field storyline of vampires, or Aladdin played out in DoF. EQ2 would have had much more initial, up-front success if it had followed that path, it's just mind boggling that the game took the course that it did. The high level community, and especially the loyal fans from Everquest were ignored, and although EQ2 has recovered somewhat, I doubt the damage could ever be completely undone, especially considering their competition.

I don't think that's an even remotely close comparison, but we can agree to disagree. There is an immense amount of insight difference between two PLAYERS that have played much less players and others. My concern is in harnessing talented, creative, passionate people looking to make THEE game and not THEIR game.

You missed the point I was making, and sure, players have different experiences and insights, I think we can all consider that a given. The point I was making was that actually playing the game, and playing it to a high level gives unique insights into encounter design, and players tend to come up with out of the box strategies which in turn could be used to design the content in the first place (ie. high end players have seen more types of encounters than most devs have, so they know what we have seen or not seen before). I think Blizzard has proven that being connected from the very top of the design chain (Rob Pardo, Tig, Furor etc) to the playerbase in regards to having tons of experience in high end guilds can prove to be as much of, or even more of an asset than having someone who has only been on the design side of things for years. Gaming companies are coming to realize this, and it is fast becoming a growing trend. Gallenite even offered to put the guild leadership of Ardent Legion on the SOE tab for the first fanfaire out in Vegas (which I couldn't attend but heard all about the drunken stories from the Star Trek bar =p), so I felt pretty touched that he in particular valued the opinions of our guild and our previous work with the devs enough to make that offer, and in my (albeit biased) opinion that's a good trend for gaming.

Anyways, yes, we can agree to disagree , and regardless of differences of opinion, I think it's a positive that at least you are engaging in open dialogue on places like this forum and would hope you make it a point to continue doing so in the future as your company grows. As crazy as people are on internet forums (and this one in particular), there are also some intelligent guys here who have some pretty damned good ideas and who have been around the block as passionate gamers for years and years. In the end, we're all a bunch of passionate nerds who love gaming (and mmo's in particular) probably far too much

And now for something completely different.....

Let me go ahead and pre-emptively make the responses that will invariably come up so we dont have to waste our time with them!

EQ2lover: EQ2 has come a long way since then Genjiro, it's changed soooo much and horses don't look all that bad!
WoWlover: Lawl Genjiro L2summarize amirite? Less QQ more pew pew nub. Pwnt.
Vanboi: Stop ragging on VG it's STILL BETA for like a whole month more!
Utnayen: McQuaid you did this to us!
600 others: Ut stop shitting up this thread with the McQh8 (this term is now patented by me!)

[Moontayle]

Blackguard is cool. I have an open opinion of Moorgard. And by open I mean I don't have one.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Genjiro

Call me crazy, but you get treated just a tad better than the average Joe/community member does, so I would guess you get a much bigger dose of "good people" than the rest of us do considering your affiliation with SOE.

Call me crazy if you don't think I didn't know this 15 years ago.
Call me crazy if you don't think I didn't know going into this, that treating _me_ nice and having talented people in the industry call _you_ a great guy, were not two things I could seperate and figure out.
People, for the most part, are different towards me, until they get to know me and they understand that being friends with me demands, for the most part, treating me like a friend, period.

Originally Posted by Genjiro

does, Gallenite does, those like Moorgard and Faarwolf never did.

That's your opinion only and as of yet you've posted not one ounce of anything to back any criticisms up, other than hearsay and your opinions. That's not to say what you are stating isn't valid, but it pertains to you and you alone as far as I am concerned because we were members of the EQ and EQ2 community at the same times and I never walked away from the boards with that opinion of him. But again, if you want me to take anything you say
as something more than just your opinion, back it up with something true and factual.

Originally Posted by Genjiro

I will say that from what I read of his contribution to the lore, that it was very well done and he does seem like a talented writer in that regard. If there was an issue with the community, Blackguard was more the type to sit down and facilitate good discussion since we were all looking to make the game better, whereas Moorgard was armed with a giant Louisville slugger at the picket lines ready to crack the skulls of any dissenters. (Ok that's a lame analogy, but you get the point.) Anyways, maybe he is a great guy that you have the luxury of knowing better than the rest of us, we're unfortunate casualities to sometimes seeing the written word out of context, and on a place like the internet perception trumps reality every time (and that perception was not flattering).

Based on what? Again you have yet to post anything here that validates this as anything other than your opinion. Now obviously your opinion is that you don't like the guy. That's cool, happens, but beyond that it's one opinion in a sea of millions which beckons the 'can't please everyone everytime' phrase to mind.

Originally Posted by Genjiro

Sure, I understand that, and I also think think that developers are so out of touch with their games and the associated playerbase for the most part these days (/wave Vanguard), that they could use a couple of those guys who do have that kind of insight to help them out in that regard. Also, consider that those guys who were all high end raiders were part of the team that has developed the most polished and complete low level experience of any game to date. Maybe you never personally played WoW, but go level up a character to 10 if you haven't, and compare it to any game out (or in beta...)and come back and tell me which one is even in the same universe that WoW is at those levels in regards to meaningful gameplay and content. I played with Pardo and Tigole for years in LoS (they were even crazy enough to trust me as their raid puller), so from a personal/design standpoint I know that as a player and developer that those guys "get it" concerning content at all levels--I think if WoW is any one thing, it is a testament to that fact.

Your Vanguard example is perfect, because in that example I think you prove some things. First off you're wrong. The developers aren't out of touch, it's just that what they made you don't like. It's obvious to anyone playing the beta that VG is being made the way Brad wants it to be made (which in most instances I like), it's not a mass market game, it's not supposed to reach mass markets, it's supposed to hit the niche Brad wants it to hit, which it most likely will. You don't like it? That doesn't mean the developers are out of touch, at least in this case, it means to me they made something you don't like, or they aren't in touch with what you want.

As far as WoW and the names mentioned, you are talking about 2 specific people as opposed to some earlier comments regarding an entire chunk of players. I do play WoW and I do agree on most of it. But I don't think that had crap to do with the names mentioned nearly as much as it had to do with the company and their approach to making games. They deliver polished, COMPLETE product, regardless of who's oveseeing the design it's about spit and polish in WoW, and in Blizzard and on that they've never missed IMO.
Now having said that I also was amazed to see WoW launched with what I thought was a legitimate lack of high end content, content that was added that I thought should have been there from day 1.


I'll respond to other parts of this later if I can..

[Fattyfat]

It probably should have been there from day one, but it certainly didn't need to be.

I imagine with launch date milestones needing to be met your resources become prioritized. When you move into beta you spend most of your time implementing fixes to defects found in this phase of testing. I'm sure 10k testers find plenty of problems and these will affect the customer's experience before the customer needs to dodge Deep Breaths in 3 months.