Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Agraza]

I really would like an environment that matters in ways like Grave mentioned. This is something that seems nearly trivial to implement, and yet is avoided by everyone. Phases of the moon, shortest/longest days of the year, morning/noon/dusk/midnight/etc. I'd also like casters to be able to draw upon their immediate surroundings to influence their spells. Some raids might be have distinct solutions based on your strengths, such as altering your target's environment to your advantage to weaken them/strengthen yourself, such as knocking the ceiling out of a dragon's lair to gain access to other spells.

Preparation is viewed as a chore in WoW because it is either fleeting (consumables) or unrewarded (Hydross/Shazrah/etc.) I don't think it needs to be so mundane as "replace your awesome cool gear with Fire Resist gear". That is why bane weapons were poorly received in EQ. It was a useless POS item that had no purpose outside the few targets you needed it for. No one likes that. We want upgrades that are advantageous, not required. Bane weapons would have been more appreciated as rapid increases in farming speed rather than minimums for progression. That's just a baby-step, but it would transform perception entirely.

I'd also like sympathetic equipment/spells that encourage Guilds to act in a harmonious manner, even if Guild A works on bleeds and infections and Guild B works on stuns and crippling blows. Likewise their targets would be limited by their strengths and weaknesses, and while this would require creating even more content, it would also significantly increase lateral advancement potential. Ideally you would have a progression set-up that encourages both specialization at one point and adaptation at another point - perhaps epic quests that guide you along killing most of the distinct targets, but without a prescribed order. I just don't understand why Guilds 1-1,000,000 all kill X the same way with the same tools regardless of their divergent origins, and I find this to be uninteresting.

I don't really want dynamic content, but I can see the draw in cyclical content. I am a hardcore completionist, so the idea that an achievement has slipped out of my grasp is very frustrating. What I do want is the ability to roll my own way out of the problem - that there isn't just a single track that everyone raids along. I'd like everyone to have the chance to experience the puzzle of a new raid encounter. This experience is robbed from you when your options are limited and your targets are few. Perhaps I am giving the masses too much credit in believing they can enjoy the challenge of overcoming new obstacles.

So long as everyone is doing the exact same things in the same ways I don't feel we're moving forward. The backend on these games has improved a lot via scripting, but it's a web we're becoming trapped in.

[Craelin]

Grave hit this idea a bit, and I'm not sure if it's ever been done, but I would like to see more "class involvement" in MMOs. Basically, I would love for there to be Rogues' Guilds, Mage Guilds, etc. where I become a member and move up through the ranks by doing certain things. And along with the ranks come rewards, titles, new crap, etc.

Heck, make it so there are certain events that only a single class can participate in every once in awhile. "Mages need to come together and fight x elemental boss" blah blah. These ideas are off the top of my head, but basically I would like to feel proud of playing x class not because "I'm the best DPSer in the guild" but because I have a presence in the overall community.

[Frax]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

One thing, that has not been done, but you feel is either a must in next gen or a serious differentiator that could set a game apart.

This is probably one area that is hardest to make your mark in as a new MMO game. Lately games are being touted as 'next gen' when they really only have variations on what has worked previously, very little is new. WAR feels like a bastard child of DAOC and WoW (Not to say either is a bad game).

I think you'd need to look at all the major games, find what is great about them and use it. And then spend a lot of time making them all better. Everything from the UI to the way lore is presented. There are probably at least half a dozen things that could be greatly improved upon in the top few games but they never seem to get better. Chat systems, UI layout, LFG systems, monster AI, and so on. There are a large amount of features people will expect to see, if you can make most or all of them better, you'll make the game more enjoyable to play for your customers.

If I had to narrow down two a couple of specific ideas they would be:

1) A UI that doesn't suck out of the box.

WAR scored a big hit with the Tome UI functionality and how it interacts with almost everything you do in game. But the rest of the WAR UI is not much of an improvement (if any) over previous games.

WoW probably has the best UI in terms of customization and stability, but it has limitations that are annoying. Why could I only have 20 quests for three years? Why aren't there built in UI themes I can change? Why are windows incapable of being resized?

2) Put back in mega dungeons. Guk Solusek A/B. Sebilis. Blackrock Depths. Blackrock Spire. Make them dangerous and risky. Not raids, but actual single group adventurers that players look forward to entering on occasion. Tiny, bite sized dungeons have their place, but every game should always have a slog it out type of dungeon that you can't just clear the same time as you half-ass pay attention to the TV at the same time.

[Citten]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

One thing, that has not been done, but you feel is either a must in next gen or a serious differentiator that could set a game apart.

Some general comments/thoughts/gripes:

Do something in cities and towns that no one else has done before. Whether this be making NPC's more lifelike, have a quality we haven't thought about, or creating a feature within NPC's that sets them apart from other games.

I think this plays to what others have mentioned before me.

The more the world that's presented feels like it's representing reality, the more people will want to be in it.

What about towns that move depending on war faction/weather? Caves that have entrances that close and open depending on X. Whirlpools in the sea that lead to spawns, pearls you can dive for, drowning pc/npc boats? Rare monsters that come out once every month, and rare monsters that are controlled and operated by the GM staff.

Sights and visuals rarely scene - glowing objects appearing for two weeks in a wooded area that has a traveling group of level 20s going what the heck? Have this visual because it's about ready to tie into your lore at a city, the lore in which then has the NPC's in your city talking amongst themselves and to PC's. The NPC's in said city eventually leave and charge in unison out into the X with the glowing objects that appeared in the wooded area.

Non-instanced anomalies are the most important thing a game can offer (this is after solid combat mechanics, everything is after solid and fair combat mechanics). It feels more like a world that has magic, that it's not a system of 0's and 1's. You're logging in because you don't know what the hell will happen, there's always a chance something really odd might happen at any time. Hey look over there, a tree just turned black, what the heck was that, the whole zone is decaying!

Not everything is random and chance, but random and chance exist in a world of magic and monsters. Finding the sweet spot between this magic, and the ability to gratify ones self with material that's 'always' there is indicative to your resources and manpower, if you manage that well, you'll have something amazing (assuming you have good resources and manpower).

Consider instanced and non instanced high end encounters. Brings in both the competition some miss, and the self serve some are used to. Demonstrate the ability to serve both player-types in that respect, have encounters so close to convenience it's absurd, and some encounters that traveling their is a distance away, with traps, mini encounters, sights to see, indicative of bringing the travel element back to mmo's, but only situationaly.

Without changing the technology, I'm uncertain if re-inventing the wheel on combat mechanics is anything to consider, besides extreme outcome variability (spells leading to other things, spells to the extreme (changing whether), skills that have a minimal chance to be something else) I think the core mechanics of combat are a gamble, but the possibilities for anomalies in them could be taken further (why can't wizards port to more places than the city? that could be an obstacle in itself...). The amount of meta game still available is quite fantastic.

The only thing you can truly make that you know, positively, will be successful is making an immerse and beautiful world. Set yourself apart in that way, take npcs to the next level. Consider how to make artificial intelligence pathing more advanced, or at least more varied. Any way to take pathing to a different level really.

Work with the meta aspects as much as you can so as long as combat and game play remain strong and fun.

[Ukerric]

Originally Posted by Frax

I think you'd need to look at all the major games, find what is great about them and use it. And then spend a lot of time making them all better.

That's mainly how World of Warcraft "won". No revolution, all evolution, lovingly polished, pruned. No Vision™ to meddle: if it's not really fun for most, redo it.

[Agraza]

It's what works in nature. Success+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 ad infinitum. Defining what constitutes the next step is the constant debate. Where do we go from here? And if you want to be successful I think you have to take small steps.

[OneofOne]

If you want players to feel Heroic, create a world in which they can do that. Other than EQ, I've yet to really see a "hard world". Doubt we ever will again unfortunately, but as others have stated we are in the age of entitlements now where everyone must be equal and be able to do/get anything anyone else can/has. The world was harsh and unforgiving, but it also made you feel damn heroic when you accomplished things. It also fostered a great community because you *had* to work together to accomplish things, be it grouping, raids, epics, etc. Only reason to get together these days is to run raid instances /yawn

I've never seen a game where it's the players vs the world, where the game world actually PUSHES BACK. Where there is something so powerful actively fighting against the races of the PCs that they must be active... or suffer consequences. What if cities were attacked on a somewhat regular basis, unless the players actually went out and prevented it. Boss_01 is going to send his army at a lesser elf city unless the players either defeat him (the army is delayed a week or two) or the players defeat said army attacking the city (resetting the attack again in 5-7 days unless boss is defeated - rinse and repeat). Make the attacks last say, 12 hours with a certain # NPCs killed to repel the attack. Such a window of time allows many people to participate. Should the players fail or not bother trying, you spawn a version of the city in ruins, overrun with these bad NPCs that you kill to take back the city. Dynamic world (on the cheap).

As the population bulge rises in level, adjust these timers for longer durations so lowbies aren't losing their merchants and skill trainers in convenient places because no one is around to keep the evil hordes back. The higher level players can come back for some stompage of greys or such, yet still gain some reward from the higher level "good" NPCs who recognize that these high level people spent time helping out with something they really needn't have. Hell, stick in code that if these high level guys do show up, then one or more level-appropriate mini-bosses spawn. Give a reason for the higher levels to help out the lower levels. Talk about feeling heroic.

Hell, just tie in higher level events such as these that by defeating slow down the attack timers of lower level stuff. Have multiple of these events run concurrently, all on their own timers, so every day or two something new is happening. You just make a large starting city or two perma-safe so there is always at least one base to push forward from no matter what happens.

There are a lot of ways to keeping a world like this somewhat "fresh" by cycling events and adding in smaller effects. No group has killed miniboss_04 in that corner of the zone so every downtime another spawn grouping changes from native animals/NPCs to whatever the enemy is (which could suck if the only way to get some TS component is from those mobs that are being replaced). On the other hand, the further the players "push" back (by zone control, killing bosses, etc) the influence of the enemy, the harder and harder said enemy NPCs and bosses get, to the point of impossible to kill (after all the enemy can't ever truly be defeated or... what's the point of the game?).

I can go on all night about a world like this, but you get the idea. I can't think of anyone who's even tried anything like this. Talk about bringing the community back to mmorpgs (something missing since EQ). Or even server competition/bragging rights.

(sorry for getting so far off topic)

[Tyen]

Tabula Rasa did something like you explained about the NPCs overtaking cities or you defending cities; happens constantly. Although, it was implemented absolutely terrible.

All-in-all good post OneofOne.

[Scaffa]

Possibly a controversial request, but..

When the time comes in your game that I think, "I'm a bit broke right now, I need to go make some money", please don't force me to fight over tradeskill items with bots and classes_who_are_better_at_farming00. I'm fucking sick to death of WoW's "Oh go farm some primals little buddy!" gold accumulation method.

Dare I say it, but I actually miss making gold by taking two or three friends and doing say BoT minis, or shit even camping Golden Efreeti Boots back in the day. Those made you enough cash to last a while. Also as a flip bonus, if you restrict the big gold makers to concerted efforts between people who play with some sense of synergy, your gold bots become less of an issue.

[Frax]

Originally Posted by Ukerric

That's mainly how World of Warcraft "won". No revolution, all evolution, lovingly polished, pruned. No Vision™ to meddle: if it's not really fun for most, redo it.

Yeah I think I should have also stated "Find what is bad about these games, and replace it with a better mechanism."

[leafknode]

Originally Posted by Grave

I'm going to go with more dynamic content as well, though I disagree with Gecko's extreme version. What he describes would never work in an MMO.

I'd like to see things like the world changing based on day/night, season, and so on. Weather changing as the season does, complete with snowfall during the winter, etc. would be really cool and immersive. A lot of work too, though, admittedly. From a gameplay standpoint, maybe certain events or quests are only running during a certain season. Maybe certain tradeskill goods become more or less valuable depending on the season. Stuff like that.

The Day/night cycle could effect anything from what creatures are roaming at what time of day to certain quests only being available or doable at certain times. You could have a graveyard area that might be graverobbers and cultists during the day, but at night the dead rise out of their graves and roam around. Or, maybe there's a quest to slay vampires and collect a certain type of dust from their remains, but the catch is the dust is only valuable if the vampire is awake and active when killed. The player would need to wait until nightfall to find the active vampires and fight them. Probably very simple to do, and yet it would add a lot of interest and replayability to the world.

I'd like to see NPCs actually going about their daily activities during the day, and going to sleep at night. A city could change completely in the hours of the night as the rogues and assassins make it their own.

Speaking of that, in a similar vein I just want to see city life be more interesting in general. In a next-gen game, I want to see huge sweeping cities that I can explore. I want to be able to actually sit down and just "play" without ever leaving the city if I want to. Give me an assassin's guild to join and some 'daily quests' that give me marks to track down within the city and eliminate without getting caught, Assassin's Creed style. You could easily come up with various other little mini-games for other types of characters that would give players something fun to do in between adventuring. You could simply ensure that everything the player needs is easy to get to (AH, Bank, etc all close together in a place that they can reach easily, the rest of the city can be for other things) and the size of the city would never be a hindrance to people who aren't interested in the other stuff.

If you implemented a system like this you could also take it to another level and actually track time as it goes by. Let's say a year in game was 3-4 months, so 3 times per RL year you could patch in a little update that represents this passage of time. Maybe new structures are erected, or new leaders appointed, new events take place, wars reach a conclusion, etc. This could be sort of like the monthly content update that Asheron's Call always had (very cool) except you don't need to do it quite that often.

Nice Post. I'd give my left nut to play in a game with this immersion.

[Ngruk]

I am absolutely on board with the 'livelier' cities thing. I think there is a point of diminishing returns that you must be absolutely careful with but ya, I agree that it would be awesome as heck to be a PC and walk into a city that looks every bit as if it is operating and working just fine on its own. People with 'business' are doing just that.

People aren't always 'home' or 'in distress' or 'at work' but there is at least an appearance that they are 'living' beyond standing around with a yellow ! above their heads waiting for the next 'hero' to come along and save their lost cat.

But this is also one of those danger areas we tend to get ourselves into when we think "How cool would it be if.."

Ok, I get it, once maybe. How cool would it be if Freeport ran itself and everyone had things 'to do', the NPC's that is. Man that would be cool, sort of. I mean Boston runs just fine without me, people, and lots of them, are ALL busy and going from here to there and NONE of them need me to quest for them. Having said that I don't drive into the city to sit back and watch it happen.... I might, I don't know, but certainly not more than once

What we 'think' might be interesting, innovative and cool, sometimes is a hell of lot less cool when we really dig into what it would mean.

Ya that's a great idea! I love the thought of quest givers not always standing in their same location, handing out the same quests. But how much do I like it when I'm 'second man in'? And that quest I needed to progress a quest line has an NPC who's 'not home'? I have to wait 45 minutes of game time for him to 'come home'? Huh? Ok that sucks....

I make the same mistake many do in sometimes thinking of MMO content like I think of single player RPG content, I think many do. I am sure a bunch of people can come up with 10+ solutions to the problem above but at the end of the day the bottom line is if 1-2 people are 'enjoying' something and the other 8 out of ten are not, that sucks for 80% of the people 'experiencing' that 'cool thing'.

[Citten]

There are always solutions as you mentioned. Implement them.

1) The NPC's that leave the town, maybe just more of the excess in the town do, preventing the quest problem? Just the "militia" leaves?

2) NPC not in place because it's off doing something else? Why even have to communicate like that? Why click the ! - why not be able to mail the NPC information, spelling out its name if you want to (this is after you've already communicated with it at least once), being able to receive quests like that, communicate several ways to PC's, NPCs too, how could that shape the game?

What if you send out a bird to give him the message, why cant the AI of the NPC be better than scripted communication through ! in a stationary position to give/receive? Why aren't birds part of the game that send/recieve messages on the fly along with the normal mail system in EQ2/WoW.

Originally Posted by Ngruk

at the end of the day the bottom line is if 1-2 people are 'enjoying' something and the other 8 out of ten are not, that sucks for 80% of the people 'experiencing' that 'cool thing'.

It depends on what you're talking about, and also how you handle your variability. I have to respond with there's always a solution again (that is, for the bigger scripted variability/events and possible town events).

The things that aren't involved in a seamless algorithm are always a concern.. With that said it's not like everyone was involved with Kerafrym The Sleeper, people just heard about it - and were pretty amazed. Pissed off? Yeah I'm sure that was the case, but at the same time happy knowing that that type of variability can exist in their game, and that the development is achieving that sort of progressive mentality in their lore. The Sleeper is easily one of EQ's defining characters, not just because of the lore behind it, but because of the event, the hardships, and the stories that were told from that massacre. Bring that back.

The point of diminishing returns is a good one. I think we can relate that to other things besides just cities. Quite frankly things that would be subject to diminishing returns wouldn't necessarily need to be large scale things, rather small scale anomalies that happen outside of the basic algorithm. To make that clear, we wouldn't be seeing ten kerafrym type events in one year. Finding the sweet spot between variability vs constants is where everything lies.

Originally Posted by Ngruk

I mean Boston runs just fine without me, people, and lots of them, are ALL busy and going from here to there and NONE of them need me to quest for them. Having said that I don't drive into the city to sit back and watch it happen.... I might, I don't know, but certainly not more than once

I hear you. I think there's a certain psychological value to realism in a fake world though, something that we can't discredit, especially in something that truly innovates itself from the pack. In EQ how many nights did you leave your computer on, character near the water while people ran from BoT to PoK book? Not to mention with the PoTranquility sound still on.

Hell, WoW kicks you off the damn server. WoW is all about the combat, the structured instanced zones, which are important...but where's the magic? Where's the personality in that? I'd argue on WoW's behalf that the art pallet they used is fascinating to a degree, there's a certain use of coloring that draws people in and is easy on the eyes. There's got to be more than decent art in the world to create a psychological attraction though. This is just my opinion on WoW really - I actually quite like WoW, but I feel It's too structered. IE. The zombie event is awesome.

Not everyone cares about anything more than strict structuralism which I well understand, but the next big thing, in my mind, enhances the aspects of structuralism and introduces the variability of a world that's truly magical.

Originally Posted by Ngruk

People aren't always 'home' or 'in distress' or 'at work' but there is at least an appearance that they are 'living' beyond standing around with a yellow ! above their heads waiting for the next 'hero' to come along and save their lost cat.

Sadly that reminds me of EQ2...I remember in Qeynos that girl that always would run around chasing her cat and crying.

Some of your comments seem to be interested in accepting current problems with MMO's. I don't know if that's because you cant hint at innovation on your end, but I'm a bit concerned there.

[Pharazon]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Ya that's a great idea! I love the thought of quest givers not always standing in their same location, handing out the same quests. But how much do I like it when I'm 'second man in'? And that quest I needed to progress a quest line has an NPC who's 'not home'? I have to wait 45 minutes of game time for him to 'come home'? Huh? Ok that sucks....

I love this idea too. The main frustration from something like this for me would be wanting to finish that quest so that you could make room in your quest log to pick up someting else. Managing the number of quests you have, having to decide which to delete here and there to make room and whatnot, is simply tedious. Its tedious in Warhammer, it was tedious in WoW, it was tedious in EQ2, and there's simply nothing fun about it. I'd like to see the whole "limited quest log" done away with. Then make an unlimited quest item inventory like Warhammer has (WoW should steal this, and probably will), cause managing your inventory to make room for quest items is just as tedious. The problem is mostly solved for me with those two things. I wouldn't feel the need to wait around for a quest NPC, because I don't have to free up quest space or get rid of the item. And I know I'd run into the NPC eventually. And then once you did turn it in, it'd feel like more of an accomplishment somehow.

[Cadrid]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Ok, I get it, once maybe. How cool would it be if Freeport ran itself and everyone had things 'to do', the NPC's that is. Man that would be cool, sort of. I mean Boston runs just fine without me, people, and lots of them, are ALL busy and going from here to there and NONE of them need me to quest for them. Having said that I don't drive into the city to sit back and watch it happen.

And yet, your actions, as well as those of your "allies" have had profound impact on Boston, both in terms of its prominence, economy, discord, and how other "NPCs" behave. Don't tell me you'd forgotten about '04 so soon!

In MMOs, defining events involving a multitude of individuals/guilds should play a part in dictating the content, layout and economy of various cities and provinces. WAR has taken a step in the right direction, where players' actions take a proactive role in defining the world and the capital city's state.

To me, the best way to provide a realistic, dynamic aspect to the typically NPC world is by providing some kind of disillusioned or revolutionary sub-aspect to each realm. As a rough example, in Freeport of EQ1 there were really three groups: the lawfully allegiant supporters of the Militia/Lucan D'Lere, the underground movement of rogues/smugglers assisted by the Shadow Knights and Necromancers, and the devoutly pious Knights of Truth, all struggling for control of the city and its priorities. In a next-gen MMORPG, I would expect players, based on their prominence between both players and the computer-regulated realm, to dictate just which aspect became a key player, thus determining the economic and "quest-based" direction of the city, as well as giving economic discounts/penalties to persons/guilds based on their personal allegiances.

The problem, here, arises in players anticipating or being predisposed to favoring one path amongst others. On the one hand, you can resort to penalties for the winning/alternate bonuses for the losing side. Or perhaps, you can open other objectives to the winning side so that they are prompted to expand their influence, offering a chance for a rebel group to overthrow them in the capitol while the winning faction seeks to expand their power/influence.

Server-side dynamics, where NPCs behave differently based upon the time of day, the world looks/acts different based upon season are one thing, but providing a balanced, player-driven economical/political/ecological habitat to enjoy is, in my opinion, the current Holy Grail of MMOGs.