Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Locithon]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Typing semi 2 handed here. Am I the only playing customer here that is blown away by all the 'patches' and what are in these patches? Listen, I am shooting for the moon and I know it's impossible (release a game with ZERO bugs), that much I get. If that's the goal you will NEVER release a game.

That being said, I am blown away by what I am seeing 'patched' after games launch. Total class overhauls and revamps, hundreds of broken NPC's, quests, 'fixed', just TONS of stuff that screams, to me anyway, WHY WASN'T I FIXED BEFORE YOU MADE SOMEONE PAY FOR ME?

This is aimed at no particular game, but Ut made a rant a long time ago that still holds true today. Companies are now using the patching tool as a development product and late beta stage project.

Problem is we as players are allowing it to continue.

THere is no simple fix or solution, hell even Blizzard does it. But if you look at their patches from the last year it seems to be much more geared to fixing post launch content and IP stuff than anything and given how much content they've added, I accept that.

Seems like we are in a day and an age where companies are patching in 'fun' after they launch a game.

Amazing.

I'll believe it when I see it. All the evidence we have to go on is the MMO's that have been released so far. And by far the most polished at launch was WoW. But I and many others can attest to the fact that there were some major things wrong with the game at launch. Here's a small taste of it:

- major class overhauls were needed and eventually took place on a patch to patch basis (warlocks at launch were just a mess for example)

- there were content gaps with some zones having little to no point to them

- end game content was hardly even tested (old-old-school Stratholme....*shutter*)

- only basic pvp was in the game

- the only raid content (MC) was in worse shape than BWL when it was first added

- instead of fixing the endgame dungeons they just let people 10 and 15-man them to compensate for them being unbalanced.


I hope your game is the first to avoid all the launch problems, but I wouldn't bet on it. Maybe it's just unavoidable unless you plan on having a beta that lasts twice as long as most games.

[CylusSoulreaver]

Originally Posted by kcxiv

Even Regular console games are now being patched after they are released. I dont know if you xbox it or not, but put in any game and 80 percent of all games have been patched now.

While true, I'm not sure that it's fair to compare the plethora of patches an MMO will ship to that of a console patch, which is required to go through a certification process that is external to the studio.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the "ship now, patch later" attitude isn't a matter of concern...just saying.

[Jait]

It's more than that kcxiv, but you're right.

The fact is if you can release a game that's so perfect it doesn't need patching, it's going to be a closed game with completely linear progression that becomes stale faster than you can say "Tic-tac-toe". We're not talking about single-player games here, this is the MMO forum. And MMO's are never, ever perfect. No one plays a single-player game (no matter how perfect) 40 hours a week for 9 years.

Build open systems. This is why EQ was great. They gave us tools, we the players turned it into techniques. Kiting, FD pulling, Chain-pets, AE groups, you name it. This was only possible from an "open system". Today, most Devs mitigate this by forcing us into 'closed abilities' which can't be used beyond their original purpose. You want "perfect"? There's always Chess, Checkers, etc..

I want a game that patches. I want a game that makes mistakes. I want a team who understands this and appropriately adjusts to the situation. Otherwise you're just cloning shit that's already been done, and we have enough of that already. There's absolutely no way to make a game with fresh mechanics that can be fully tested in alpha/beta phase. Even a year later people will figure out things you never could've anticipated. This is what makes a good system, and eventually a good game. Anyone who says otherwise needs to get the fuck out of their Ivory Tower and start releasing games to prove it.

[Locithon]

Originally Posted by Jait

It's more than that kcxiv, but you're right.

The fact is if you can release a game that's so perfect it doesn't need patching, it's going to be a closed game with completely linear progression that becomes stale faster than you can say "Tic-tac-toe". We're not talking about single-player games here, this is the MMO forum. And MMO's are never, ever perfect. No one plays a single-player game (no matter how perfect) 40 hours a week for 9 years.

Build open systems. This is why EQ was great. They gave us tools, we the players turned it into techniques. Kiting, FD pulling, Chain-pets, AE groups, you name it. This was only possible from an "open system". Today, most Devs mitigate this by forcing us into 'closed abilities' which can't be used beyond their original purpose. You want "perfect"? There's always Chess, Checkers, etc..

I want a game that patches. I want a game that makes mistakes. I want a team who understands this and appropriately adjusts to the situation. Otherwise you're just cloning shit that's already been done, and we have enough of that already. There's absolutely no way to make a game with fresh mechanics that can be fully tested in alpha/beta phase. Even a year later people will figure out things you never could've anticipated. This is what makes a good system, and eventually a good game. Anyone who says otherwise needs to get the fuck out of their Ivory Tower and start releasing games to prove it.

I'm with you, but I think the days of games like EQ are pretty much over. At least until someone reinvents the genre and comes up with a total new system.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by kcxiv

Even Regular console games are now being patched after they are released. I dont know if you xbox it or not, but put in any game and 80 percent of all games have been patched now.

I just think when games go through QA testing they have probably a handful of people that test the games. Hell, even in beta for mmo's they have a few thousand maybe. Then when shit gets released you have 100k to millions of new minds thinking of ways to exploit. I just dont think anything is going to come out now days without needing a patch. At least in this day and age we can now get something fixed.

Yes, he said what he's seeing patched. Not that there are patches.

No console game has had patching done to the extent of the most-fiddled-with PC games, MMO or not, have had.

Fixing some issue or quibble is not the same thing as totally revamping a class from the ground up or reenvisioning how to make the largest scale pvp fight function. Having an idea and running with it once people have the box purchased is not going to happen any more, even flagshipping people with the lure of infinite subscriptions or what have you is a joke.

As mentioned before, even WoW had to do this level of patching to some degree, so while there's always going to be overreaching there aren't enough MMO examples to make it indicative of anything necessary. Would people have been too deep into EQ2 to appreciate WoW if they had waited a few more months? At what point can you stop saying "in a few more months it will be more appropriate to launch?"

There is simply a lapse in the testing process if one of the major building blocks in the game - the class someone plays - needs to be rethought after people raid and say that the class is extremely dull.

Of course, the cash burns away as that level of polish is applied. WoW had the fact that it was taking the edge off of EQ and other MMOs in its corner.

You can't possibly make a MMO more streamlined interface- and accessibility-wise than WoW was - even at launch considering server issues. WoW has simply forced people's standards into a good place regarding MMOs, unfortunately that puts a tall order on competition.

AOC lost and continues to lose plenty of people who would have stuck around through this launch if other games didn't do it better. Double whammy for actually having made an MMO before.

[mutantmagnet]

Originally Posted by column

PostScript* there is one thing that EQ adopted from its MUD roots that I've yet to see another game use,and that is the guide system to help with CS,new players,and police exploiters. Thats something every MMO should think about useing.

Could you extrapolate more on what this guide system was like?

[James]

It was a flaming pile of shit used and abused by the worst people possible that you could have policing your playerbase. They were uninformed, idealistic, sloppy, disgruntled, angry at life in general, or all of the above. It was a system easily corrupted and implemented even worse. To become a guide, they asked you questions like "What's the NPC that's alive for three fractions of a second in the single most unvisited, remote part of the online world of EverQuest" -- and they fucking meant it.

Pretty sure I'd rather get fucked by a donkey than play in another pile of shit guide system.

[CnCGOD]

Originally Posted by Horse

Yes, he said what he's seeing patched. Not that there are patches.

No console game has had patching done to the extent of the most-fiddled-with PC games, MMO or not, have had.

Fixing some issue or quibble is not the same thing as totally revamping a class from the ground up or reenvisioning how to make the largest scale pvp fight function. Having an idea and running with it once people have the box purchased is not going to happen any more, even flagshipping people with the lure of infinite subscriptions or what have you is a joke.

As mentioned before, even WoW had to do this level of patching to some degree, so while there's always going to be overreaching there aren't enough MMO examples to make it indicative of anything necessary. Would people have been too deep into EQ2 to appreciate WoW if they had waited a few more months? At what point can you stop saying "in a few more months it will be more appropriate to launch?"

There is simply a lapse in the testing process if one of the major building blocks in the game - the class someone plays - needs to be rethought after people raid and say that the class is extremely dull.

Of course, the cash burns away as that level of polish is applied. WoW had the fact that it was taking the edge off of EQ and other MMOs in its corner.

You can't possibly make a MMO more streamlined interface- and accessibility-wise than WoW was - even at launch considering server issues. WoW has simply forced people's standards into a good place regarding MMOs, unfortunately that puts a tall order on competition.

AOC lost and continues to lose plenty of people who would have stuck around through this launch if other games didn't do it better. Double whammy for actually having made an MMO before.

Yea the thing is other than WoW, AoC is actualy the most complete MMO at release. They just fucked up by making the leveling curve too fast thus exposing the content gap faster.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by CnCGOD

Yea the thing is other than WoW, AoC is actualy the most complete MMO at release.

You are on some serious crack.

Edit: removed f bombs

[CnCGOD]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

You are on some serious crack.

Edit: removed f bombs

Ive played them all, name one in better shape content wise.

UO- Content was all in player interaction, bugs galore (Great game but the bugs were pretty epic)
EQ- 2 doungens and 2 raid bosses at launch, horrible ballance, quests? What quests? bugs galore
AC- Didnt play enough to tell
AO- No content > 100 literaly, buggy beyond all others
DaOC- Horrible ballance issues, no itemization, broken mechanics
EQ2- Didnt play enough (wow concurrency etc) but felt unfinnished at launch
LOTRO- No PvP, No high end content, class ballance, weak combat mechanics, meaningless crafting
Shadowbane- Great PvP but no content, horrible bugs, broken mechanics, lag, sb.exe
Starwars Galaxies- Do I really need to comment?
Vanguard- Bugs, content gaps, performance, not to mention the fun being misssing

many other games that didnt make the cut ... quit them because the issues were pretty bad.

[Bongk]

Originally Posted by mutantmagnet

Could you extrapolate more on what this guide system was like?

AO used ARK's they were the same exact thing.

EDIT: bleh meant to reply to other post asking why EQ was only game with guides.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by CnCGOD

Ive played them all, name one in better shape content wise.

There is more to 'complete' than just a handful of raid encounters that you can push into a wall to exploit for a free kill.

Not going to turn this into an AoC thread though. just that your assertion is completely wrong.

AoC = not enough content to level 1-80, terrible dungeons, terrible raids, completely broken and/or missing crafting and PvP is an utter joke. So yeah, if, that's the what the second best MMO ever can do then I think I will just retire completely until Curt heals up and gives up some info.

Get well soon Curt!

[Genjiro]

A lot of those bug and/or patch problems could be fixed, but there always seems to be a chain of people who want things done right and those who are just there for a paycheck who really didn't care much.

Scott asked my guild to test some raid content for them when in EQ2, and we would find literally game/zone breaking bugs which I would send them info back about which never fucking got fixed. Sometimes the fix was as simple as moving spawns to a new place (hi2ufroglok raid zone) so they wouldn't get stuck under the world in zone geometry and screw up the entire script and then break the whole zone and lock you out for days (goddamn that was so retarded). Same exact thing happened when we beta tested their Bloodline Chronicles xpac, and in each case it was like a month and a half from when we tested it, *with their devs on hand with us*, to when it got shipped live and was never ever fixed (ie, it was in the same shape as it was when we first tested it out).

It's infuriating when we would take weekend time (when we didn't raid) to help them get their shit straight and they would just say "oh well", and ship it broken anyways. Was a complete waste of our time, and it was obvious that Mr. R.U. didn't give two shits about their raid content and was a complete buffoon (dude tried to say we exploited right in front of his face, on the test server doing them a fucking favor...we had a good laugh about that).

You definitely need people in charge who hold the game to the same standard that say, the lead producer does (if they care like Hartsman did), because you end up with the half polished turds getting sent out the door that we had to deal with. Whoever is in charge of giving the green light for patching/shipping needs to be completely anal about making sure bugs get fixed. I can pretty much guarantee you our experience was somehow a giant clusterfuck of a chain of command getting the bugs sent to the right people, and somewhere along the way it ended up getting swept under the rug.

[Gecko]

The problem is so many MMO gamers will play 300 hours burning through the content in the first month of an MMO that only has the first half fleshed out, and get upset because it isn't a mature product. Heck, as has been pointed out WOW was the same as AOC, but with even less content and absolutely nothing revolutionary, just re-engineered smarter.

AOC is a well designed game, but just like every other new MMO it has a lot of bugs, and needs content. However, AOC will succeed based on the casual and longterm players, just as WOW has done. The mainstay of those 10 million are not the 300 hour a month players, but the ones who play 20 hours a week. They have not burned through the content, and they didn't run away after a month because they were done and the game was half baked, which WOW certainly was.

I hope Funcom balances the 85% of casual core gamers with the 5% of hardcore people and realizes which ones they need to gauge their development and speed of rolling things out for, to make the game a long term solid and healthy endeavor.

Twobit is an AOC hater. Yet for some reason he can't quit posting in these threads or actually give a fair analysis, so I wouldn't worry about discussing things with him. Given how horrid he's said AOC is over and over, the fact he's still discussing it and bought it at retail shows he's a hypocrit.

It wouldn't surprise me if he worked for another gaming company since his modus operandi is just to overtly and covertly attack AOC.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Gecko

It wouldn't surprise me if he worked for another gaming company since his modus operandi is just to overtly and covertly attack AOC.

While I would love to get a paycheck for posting about games unfortunately I don't. Besides, the game does well enough at bringing itself down without my help.