Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

The people that are coming to GMG to fill these roles, most of them are at work for other companies committed to other things right now. When they do make the transition there will be announcements made and I think at that time people will realize that talen wise, we nailed it.

Or maybe it's about the same old faces hiding behind a new mask, with empty promises, waiting for the first occasion to jump ship again.

This industry is highly incestuous and it isn't a good thing as noone is responsible of anything and people tend to flee as soon as things get problematic and don't contribute positively anymore to that "celebrity" that many of those veteran names chase.

I'd like to see new blood. Fresh ideas from those who have solid arguments against current MMOs and have solid ideas to push them forward. Those who don't hide. Some fighting spirits who want to dare, who want the challenge, and aren't easily contented. Not those who had already their possibilities to do something and did nothing.

It is a big risk, but, as always, it can make the difference.

While it is necessary to get things right in particular on the technical side, as you could heap good or bad ideas for years, but at the end what matters is the execution.

For a new studio it's the hardest part. Finding synergy between the team. Blizzard made a great game also because they had a LONG story behind them. They didn't made a great game all at the sudden. The great game was a destination, not their start.

This is also why I'm always strongly skeptical when I hear of new studios being formed. It happens often and in nearly all cases it doesn't end well. People come and go, always looking to make their own resume more impressive. It's hard to make a team that isn't just an aggregation of "big names". Working as a whole, for a shared vision, that's what is hard to see. And often those big names are the reason why project fails, because they cannot agree on anything, and don't want their names to be associated with just one thing.

It can take a few months to assemble a good team. But it takes YEARS to make that team work like a team.

Is GMG a comet in this industry or something that is going to stay? That's the point.

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Camerous

At the end of your next to last post you quoted Abalieno talking about his dream world but didn't say anything under the quote. Does this mean you are using the world he was refering to or did you use it as a base for your game like he did in his write up?

I doubt they are licencing Moorcock when they got Salvatore

He quoted my whole post and commented some parts.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Camerous

At the end of your next to last post you quoted Abalieno talking about his dream world but didn't say anything under the quote. Does this mean you are using the world he was refering to or did you use it as a base for your game like he did in his write up?

Neither, it was just left as part of his quoted message and I had nothing to say about it.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Abalieno

Or maybe it's about the same old faces hiding behind a new mask, with empty promises, waiting for the first occasion to jump ship again..

Ok I will bite, what the hell does this mean??

Originally Posted by Abalieno

This industry is highly incestuous and it isn't a good thing as noone is responsible of anything and people tend to flee as soon as things get problematic and don't contribute positively anymore to that "celebrity" that many of those veteran names chase..

I've bitten again, no clue what this really means......

Originally Posted by Abalieno

I'd like to see new blood. Fresh ideas from those who have solid arguments against current MMOs and have solid ideas to push them forward. Those who don't hide. Some fighting spirits who want to dare, who want the challenge, and aren't easily contented. Not those who had already their possibilities to do something and did nothing..

Why do you want someone with solid arguments against current MMOs? There's over 15 million players playing MMO's, they work, some more than others. Certainly room for new blood in anything, as long as it's creative envelope pushing new blood and not new for the sake of not being old....

And as far as the last sentence, who had possibilities, as you put it, and did nothing? Do you have any concept of what it takes to actually get an MMO to beta? The monumental task to create something of this scale? Even the simplest MMO is a massive project requiring a very significant amount of money.

Originally Posted by Abalieno

It is a big risk, but, as always, it can make the difference..

What? New blood? Na, no risk at all if the talent and passion is there imo.

Originally Posted by Abalieno

While it is necessary to get things right in particular on the technical side, as you could heap good or bad ideas for years, but at the end what matters is the execution..

What does that mean? Heap good ideas? Bottom line is the game has to be good.

Originally Posted by Abalieno

For a new studio it's the hardest part. Finding synergy between the team. Blizzard made a great game also because they had a LONG story behind them. They didn't made a great game all at the sudden. The great game was a destination, not their start..

I disagree on both counts. The hardest part for me is not the synergy. When you find incredible talent, it's usually attached to passion, when you can put something together that attracts talented people with passion the synergy shows up.

Blizzard made a great game, they could have screwed it up because under that analogy Blizzard had that long story, which I think you meant good story, but under that analogy SWG and LoTR are impossible to screw up. SWG had 30 years of great story behind it, LoTR a centuries worth.
Story and a good history are nice, but that doesn't mean you can't screw them up.

Originally Posted by Abalieno

This is also why I'm always strongly skeptical when I hear of new studios being formed. It happens often and in nearly all cases it doesn't end well. People come and go, always looking to make their own resume more impressive. It's hard to make a team that isn't just an aggregation of "big names". Working as a whole, for a shared vision, that's what is hard to see. And often those big names are the reason why project fails, because they cannot agree on anything, and don't want their names to be associated with just one thing..

I may be in the dark on this one but do you work in the industry? What I know about it is that 'working' at a new studio doesn't mean jack. Your resume contains 22 different studios, you got problems. In this business, imo, the only thing that matters on your resume is "TITLES SHIPPED" and correspondingly your jobs/responsibilities on those titles. If you don't have titles shipped your resume gets pushed far to the back by others that do.

Originally Posted by Abalieno

It can take a few months to assemble a good team. But it takes YEARS to make that team work like a team..

I disagree. Chemistry within the framework of a team is created by the team. Winning in baseball creates chemistry. Combine winning with passion and you get World Series Rings. In the real world, to me anyway, winning would be labled achieving, and how that's handled by the people in charge can foster and enhance team chemistry on a much quicker basis.

Originally Posted by Abalieno

Is GMG a comet in this industry or something that is going to stay? That's the point.

Comets blaze trails right? They travel far, fast and with alot of splendor. People strain to see them, they are epic events in and of themselves I will take the comet thing and the fact that we'll most likely be around a good long while.

[Frax]

I think he is assuming you are hiring the same people that gave us games like SWG, EQ2 (before the massive changes), Shadowbane and countless other steaming piles of crap over the last 6 or 7 years. I have no idea either way, but I *think* that is what he was hinting at.

[Cadrid]

Originally Posted by Frax

I think he is assuming you are hiring the same people that gave us games like SWG, EQ2 (before the massive changes), Shadowbane and countless other steaming piles of crap over the last 6 or 7 years. I have no idea either way, but I *think* that is what he was hinting at.

Bingo. There are some big names in the game industry that, while well-known, have either recently been screwing up bigtime, or are highly overrated. Sometimes game developers that don't hold "celeb" status are more valuable and talented than the Wrights and Carmacks.

Also, I think he meant "meteors", not comets, since meteors are very quick occurances until they're burned up, while, as Curt said, meteors are around for millions (even billions) of years.

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Ok I will bite, what the hell does this mean??

I mean that often we see new dev studios that are just driven by the same names. Nothing new, nothing different. Just a recycle of the same stuff.

Blizzard made a great game, they could have screwed it up because under that analogy Blizzard had that long story, which I think you meant good story, but under that analogy SWG and LoTR are impossible to screw up. SWG had 30 years of great story behind it, LoTR a centuries worth.
Story and a good history are nice, but that doesn't mean you can't screw them up.

Nope, I don't mean the story of the setting on which the game is based. I mean the story behind the dev studio. Blizzard is around from a LONG time. It's not a dev studio put together in a couple of weeks and that suddenly started making great games.

It takes time. Gathering big names just isn't enough.

"Garriott assembled what he calls a ‘Dream Team' of MMO developers; senior staff recruited from Ultima Online and the Wing Commander series were joined by key members of NCsoft's Korean studios, including Lineage creator Jake Song.

Almost immediately, cracks began to appear in the Dream Team dynamic. Nearly everyone working on Tabula Rasa was at the top of their field, meaning that nearly everyone was over-qualified for the work they were doing. Supremely confident, the team looked to innovate on every front, making an already ambitious design even more challenging. True to the adage of “too many cooks in the kitchen,” a clash of egos slowed the development process.

This before half the team left and TWO major reorganizations and redesigns.

Say "hello" to big names.

[Ngruk]

I've played with Dale Murphy, Cal Ripken, been to the World Series with John Kruk, Lenny Dykstra, Randy Johnson, Luis Gonzalez, Matt Williams, Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez, David Ortiz.

I've been around bigger names than this industry will ever throw at me for 20 years, won't be a problem.

Winning World Series, achieving a team goal with huge ego's involved is what I've lived for two decades, there's an art to it, a way for it to work, a way for it to happen, but it takes leadership.

I'm pretty comfortable that the names and faces we are assembling already understand the 'check your ego at the door' mentality with which this company is being formed, and will operate.

[Malakie Torsade]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

I am not sure I will ever get this. I can buy the "I don't like his style" argument, that happens. What I don't get is the browbeating of someone who's got more talent in his craft than you, me, and anyone else on this board by an amount none of us could measure.

If I didn't like his style, I would have said so. I don't like David Bowie's style, but I think he's a talented person. From the books I mentioned above and which were raved about by fans, I consider him to be not very good. It read them as a fanfic about someone's munchkin character. Maybe he's improved since then, I don't know. If I read the stuff for your game and think it's great, am I still going to "browbeat" him? Of course not. In fact, if I do play your game and enjoy the lore, I would love for him to write novels about the game so I could read those as well, as I do with WoW (yes, I'm a nerd.)

Second, this guy has sold over 15 million books in the U.S. alone, so someone thinks he's good, alot of someones.

Do I really need to throw out the McDonald's/Brittany Spears/Spice Girls/Uwe Bolle analogies here?

You heard he was an ass from whom? There isn't a person on this board that knows Todd personally. What you know of Todd is what you read and what you see, period. I know from growing up in public that that's the absolute worst way to form opinions of people, but I also understand that without anything else out there, it's all you have.

It was pretty common to hear it here and there when I was still reading his work. Again, keep in mind this was, oh... 12 years ago? Again, it was what I had heard about him; I didn't take it as gospel... and I still bought his comics.

When all is said and done I think there will be a few people rethinking their opinions as they get to know these guys, and you will get to know them beyond what you know now.

Good. I look forward to it... though I already like 50% of them now.

And I'm serious about the tradeskill thing. As much I enjoy WoW, the tradeskills are very bland. There is totally room for a game with an in-depth, well thought out tradeskill system. I want an MMO where a crafter can do just that; create and distribute his wares. I want a system where people know that if they want the best X, they go to me. Create a synergy between the Crafters, Raiders, and PvP'rs. You want the best Ore in the game? You talk to the raiders. You want to set up shot in a hot area? You talk to the PvP'rs to keep out the enemy faction. I could go on and on (and on,) but you get the point.

[Abalieno]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

In this business, imo, the only thing that matters on your resume is "TITLES SHIPPED" and correspondingly your jobs/responsibilities on those titles. If you don't have titles shipped your resume gets pushed far to the back by others that do.

And this is bringing in new blood how? Problem is that "talent and passion" are really hard to judge.

The point is that there's a difference between saying "we want to make the greatest game ever" and "we want to make the greatest game ever, this is HOW."

Many people go with the first, a few actually dare to say how. Because that would mean say SOMETHING.

A couple of years ago I was one of the few criticizing Vanguard because behind all the hype there was NOTHING. The descriptions were so vapid that everyone could imagine the game as they liked, and got an idea of it completely wrong.

It's easy to hide behind slogans or big names. It's harder to back up proclaims with solid ideas, without fears of being recognized and discovered.

[Angry Amadeus]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

I've played with Dale Murphy, Cal Ripken, been to the World Series with John Kruk, Lenny Dykstra, Randy Johnson, Luis Gonzalez, Matt Williams, Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez, David Ortiz.

I've been around bigger names than this industry will ever throw at me for 20 years, won't be a problem.

Winning World Series, achieving a team goal with huge ego's involved is what I've lived for two decades, there's an art to it, a way for it to work, a way for it to happen, but it takes leadership.

I'm pretty comfortable that the names and faces we are assembling already understand the 'check your ego at the door' mentality with which this company is being formed, and will operate.

I understand what it feels like to succeed in one industry and then enter another industry, thinking that the same drive and ambition (and success) you've already achieved will carry over in some rapport, with your backing and energetic attitude for your new venture (see: Paul Allen and pharmaceuticals, genetic-research, nanotechnology). I have also seen the backlash and reprecussions of not fully understanding the industry you are entering with your newfound zeal (for me, music production > finance), and the seriously awkward head-hanging that you must endure if you are not 110% successful by all accounts.

Your language and verbose are pretty amazing. I'll admit, I'm not a fan of baseball (sin?), but I do understand your love of MMO's. When you get something on the plate (pun?), then perhaps it will be easier to digest what you just stated above.

[KharzaWHA?]

Well, what you're saying certainly sounds interesting. I agree with a lot of what you've said, like the hype control, and such. I don't have experience with company management and all the personel interactions, but what you're saying sure sounds good.

But, for the love of all that is holy, IF you decide to have pvp in your game, DON'T just throw it in at the last minute because your fans want it. Design the classes and skill systems to reflect that and balance around that, whichever way you go. I'd say throwing it in at the last minute creates more work for you than it's worth. But, that's easier said than done, because there's a lot more to balancing

On tradeskills, there's a pretty simple rule that WoW totally missed. If whatever you make is not destroyed or consumed in normal usage, then it will ultimately become useless due to market saturation. In-game economies don't have the luxury of a constant birth-rate, like the real world. If you want to look at a working game economy, look at EVE Online. From what i've heard in TBC, it sounds like blizzard is figuring this out and including more consumable items in all of the tradeskills.


That's all I'm gunna throw out there for now, not sure if this is the sort of thing you're looking for. If it is, say so and i'll ramble on more stuff.

[Moontayle]

If you hire Raph Koster, then I've lost all hope. I'm sorry but he's the #1 reason SWG ended up being a huge honking steaming pile and I feel ashamed that I believed in his bullshit for so long.

[Kreugen]

This is the strangest thread ever. People arguing gaming with an ace pitcher with his name on a record or two (20 K's and um.. hey I'm no stat geek, I just watch the game) just seems surreal, like discussing BSG with John Smoltz or something. Especially since I grew up on the Richmond Braves - many of whom made up the stars of the 90's in Atlanta - and thus I hated your ass every time Atlanta played Philly and Arizona. And the whole world wanted Boston to win that series but, I must say, every time I've had an unfriendly confrontation at a sporting event, a Boston fan was involved. Boston College at Virginia Tech? Fuckhead tried to throw a beer on me, completely unprovoked. Boston at Atlanta? Fucker mouthed off to my GRANDMA. I woulden't piss on a Boston fan if he was on fire. But hey, at least it wasn't the Yankees. And it's always cool to see a good player finally get his due on a winning team late in his career. The guy survived Philly, give props.

Uh, back on point. Who knows what Salvatore can do when he's not constrained by someone elses IP? We know he's a MMO fan. Sure, he's not George Martin, but I'd rather George keep busy on more novels anyway. (god I love that series)

Frankly though, I'd rather see a good studio putting out single player RPG's on the PC. Only the very best MMO's are worth playing, but there are shit for single player games out there. I'm sick of the morrowinds and other first person hack and slash RPG crap, bring us back to tactical combat and I'd thank you for it. I'd even forgive you all of those shutouts.

Too weird for a baseball fan.

[redjunkopera]

I think he is assuming you are hiring the same people that gave us games like SWG, EQ2 (before the massive changes), Shadowbane and countless other steaming piles of crap over the last 6 or 7 years. I have no idea either way, but I *think* that is what he was hinting at.

The problem is that MMO design is a niche field and the talent pool is small.

I'm in biotech and we have similar issues. You need someone with experience running a biotech ship, but the field is so small you either hire the people other people didn't want, hire inexperienced and train them, or lay out a ton of cash to bring in the best... and when your funds are limited the third choice usually isn't much of an option.

The solution imo is to simplify the MMO creation process. Instead of creating an engine from the ground up like every other company out there, lease one from an existing company and modify it to suit your needs.

Build tools for content generation.

I know I'm a lone wolf on this hunt, but I believe algorythms for content generation are the way to go. Land, creatures, gear, quests... whatever. You can create equations that are erratic enough that they don't feel artificial (e.g. speedtree) but still provide balanced content.

So instead of having a team of developers trying to create interesting content from their gut and then balance it, have an equation or series of equations create balanced content and then make it interesting with a couple of devs instead.

Make it so you don't have to dig through the limited pool of people with know-how to find the creative... make tools available so that you can easily just find people who are creative and then teach them the tools.

The problem is right now is that whenever someone has a semi-interesting idea it takes 5 years to test it out, and first you have to convince someone to risk the capital to try it out. Build a game like I'm saying and you will have a system to build and test out ideas quickly and efficiently... the more ideas you try the more successes you will find... just like any other development project.