Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by ShroudedMist

The IP it's built upon probably means a lot less than some people around here are suggesting when it comes to attracting the non-typical gamer like WoW did.

Three years ago, i'd have had no problem agreeing with you. But with the turn the mmo market has taken, if your IP is little more than a variation of previously implemented systems and stories, your chances of meaningful competition against those who have done it best are somewhere between slim, and none.

Thats a helluva risk to take with such an expenditure. Unless you go into it with the intent of just carving out your little piece, and being happy with what you end up with, you may find yourself way out of your league, and in over your head.

[Grave]

You realize before WoW came along, EQ had done it best? Before EQ, UO had done it best? WTF are you talking about?

WoW is not the be all end all of MMORPG design. They made a very good game, and currently dominate. That does not mean by any stretch that someone can't come along, unique IP or generic_fantasy_01, and completely outmatch them.

I would actually venture to say that going too far from the established mold is MORE of a risk than simply doing a variation of the established system. As long as the gameplay rivals WoW, and it is polished and well maintained, the game will succeed.

[column]

Originally Posted by Grave

You realize before WoW came along, EQ had done it best? Before EQ, UO had done it best? WTF are you talking about?

WoW is not the be all end all of MMORPG design. They made a very good game, and currently dominate. That does not mean by any stretch that someone can't come along, unique IP or generic_fantasy_01, and completely outmatch them.

I would actually venture to say that going too far from the established mold is MORE of a risk than simply doing a variation of the established system. As long as the gameplay rivals WoW, and it is polished and well maintained, the game will succeed.

There is very distinct reasons for those 3 games success.

UO was the first real mainstream mmo
EQ was the first true 3d dikumud..when muds were extremely popular
WoW brought its huge playerbase with them from warcraft not to mention they hired some of the top players of EQ to work for them.WoW would not enjoy the kind of success it has without warcraft.

When Eq was number 1 here in the states it was not the number 1 mmo in the world. More asians were playing games like Lineage then EQ.

It would take a true juggernaut of a game to dethrone WoW or even get close to it.I don't see it happening anytime soon,especially not this game company which has no games at all to its name. Even Verant had Tanarus before EQ.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Grave

You realize before WoW came along, EQ had done it best? Before EQ, UO had done it best? WTF are you talking about?

Way to miss the point there skippy. NO PREVIOUS game has taken the market by storm the likes of WoW. You seem all to eager to forget those that came AFTER WoW. ALL of which did things both similar to, and completely different to EVERYTHING before them. INCLUDING WoW.

WoW is not the be all end all of MMORPG design. They made a very good game, and currently dominate. That does not mean by any stretch that someone can't come along, unique IP or generic_fantasy_01, and completely outmatch them.

When did I say it was? I merely stated that I doubt any new "fantasy" based IP would be able to compete with it anytime soon. Perhaps try to avoid adding in your own personal thoughts to the comments you read?

I would actually venture to say that going too far from the established mold is MORE of a risk than simply doing a variation of the established system. As long as the gameplay rivals WoW, and it is polished and well maintained, the game will succeed.

Venture there if you like. But it doesn't change the fact that even sticking with fantasy is EQUALLY risky, especially when you "intend" to compete with Blizzard for market share. I never made any claims that a new fantasy IP couldn't "succeed". What I DID say, was I find it highly unlikely that such an IP would be able to compete DIRECTLY with WoW. LotRO was pretty well polished, and i'd say its pretty well maintained as well. Does that change the fact that it doesn't compete for market share on an even remotely similar field as WoW? That LotR IP is about as bag as they come. And it still didn't matter.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Rayne

But it doesn't change the fact that even sticking with fantasy is EQUALLY risky

I don't see how. Fantasy is proven. People are familiar with it. It's a lot easier to get people to come to a game that's "like WoW kinda but a whole lot better" than it is to get them to go to a game that isn't like anything they can understand. Obviously vets and hardcore players won't be affected by this but I think we all can agree that the vast majority of the mainstream market doesn't fall into this category.

[Cybsled]

Eventually, a sizable portion of the population will get tired of a game, leaving the more core market as a remainder. Many of the games that have avoided this are usually online games, most of which allowed a person to create a mod that revitalized the original game (Half-Life/Counter-Strike or WC3/DOTA being very notable examples).

Eventually a notable segment of WoW will get "bored" and leave. It's an undeniable truth. It will happen. Eventually people will want something new.

Here's my view:

SC2 re-energizes the property in the US/Euro markets. Hopefully it likewise adds a little spark to the SC pro-gaming leagues in South Korea, which while still popular still aren't near their peak of 3-5 years ago.

D3 gets released (rumors are saying it will be announced in Paris at the WWI. Of special note is that Diablo is crazy popular in the land of cheese-eaters!).

X of Starcraft is announced, revealed to have been in development since SC2 and WOTLK were released. It is a delicious mix of Tabula Rasa and Planetside.

The staff of Blizzard boards the white boats that will take them across the ocean to an island built of pure money, where android elves will serve their every whim.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

I don't see how. Fantasy is proven. People are familiar with it. It's a lot easier to get people to come to a game that's "like WoW kinda but a whole lot better" than it is to get them to go to a game that isn't like anything they can understand. Obviously vets and hardcore players won't be affected by this but I think we all can agree that the vast majority of the mainstream market doesn't fall into this category.

Its simple. The LotR IP could NOT bring massive numbers into the genre. And we're talking about one of the most popular IP's of all time there. "Like WoW kinda but a whole lot better" will read as "not much more than more of the same" to a fairly good portion of the current gamespace. At worst, Blizzard may slip a bit with its grip on the market, but you can be absolutely certain they'll respond with a spectacle beyond belief to counter it.

How long do you really think a new, completely unheard of "fantasy" IP will be able to hold out against the constant assault Blizzard will throw at it to secure thier market share? Its a no-brainer man. Its time to explore into other avenues besides fantasy. Bring in more fresh blood with something enticing and "new". Fantasy just isn't going to cut it anymore. But do it before Blizzard does. Or you may as well not even bother.

[Grave]

LotRo is a horrible example, because while it is a good IP, the gameplay simply sucked.

Gameplay has to come first, and my previous statements about Fantasy being the way to go were made with the assumption that 38 Studious realizes this fact. If they don't have a good game first, this whole argument about what type of IP to go with is pointless to begin with.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Grave

LotRo is a horrible example, because while it is a good IP, the gameplay simply sucked.

Again, you completely missed the point. Warcraft = HUGE IP. LotR = HUGE IP. LotRO could not compete with what WoW had accomplished. On ANY level other than where EVERY other game competes. And your "opinion" that LotRO's gameplay "sucks", counts for nothing in the scope of a "yet to be developed" IP. Again, i'm not saying that a new IP, fantasy or other wise, cannot be successful in the overall market. I'm just extremely reserved that ANY new "fantasy" IP can compete on the same level as Blizzard for market share with "yet another fantasy game". Thats the intent of 38 Studios, is it not?

[Grave]

Originally Posted by Rayne

Again, you completely missed the point. Warcraft = HUGE IP. LotR = HUGE IP. LotRO could not compete with what WoW had accomplished. On ANY level other than where EVERY other game competes.

I'm not missing your point. I completely understand what you're saying. The point I was trying to make is, had LotRo been as fun as WoW, offered as much as WoW, it WOULD have competed. End of story. They started down the path in the beginning to mostly cater to extreme LotR fans when they decided not to have common magic users and things like that. They dug themselves into that hole. The game was just too shallow, it played sluggishly, and offered little to nothing for the hardcore gamer. These are flaws that cannot be overlooked. A game looking to compete with WoW from the earliest stages of development, will, hopefully, not make these mistakes. From what I've heard Curt say in interviews, he seems to know what he needs to do.

Originally Posted by Rayne

Again, i'm not saying that a new IP, fantasy or other wise, cannot be successful in the overall market. I'm just extremely reserved that ANY new "fantasy" IP can compete on the same level as Blizzard for market share with "yet another fantasy game". Thats the intent of 38 Studios, is it not?

The reasons why fantasy can compete have been stated numerous times in this thread. It's not about the genre of the IP, but about the quality of the game. Assuming solid quality, on par with WoW, a fantasy game is the most likely to succeed based on simple facts that we have seen in the past.

[Blackulaa]

I would venture to say LoTR is a huge IP, but not a huge gaming IP. There is a difference. Just because everyone in the world knows what an IP is, the industry in what it is known for, usually gets the best reception.

Example. Blizzard is a huge " triple A gaming development IP" company. Legions of fans from Warcraft, Vikings, SC, Diablo, etc.

Now they have crossed over into comics, toys, film, etc. Name me a #1 in those industries. (I could be wrong but most likely not.) Will it ever beat Spiderman in comics, Titanic in film, Timberlake in music? Fans aren't that stupid.

That is why Lotro did not do huge numbers (but still turning a profit I'd guess, because that's the bottom line, not our dreams and wishes). It is an "ok gaming IP" from an "ok developer".

[Gaereth]

I would say you are missing the point Rayne.

LOTR had an arguably LARGER IP to draw from and it did worse. Why?? It was a sucky game.

WOW got a grand kickstart with its IP but that doesn't retain or create anything other than initial purchase from fans. SWG got a grand kickstart....LOTR got a grand kickstart. The IP may have started WOW nicely but if the game had not been fun or sucked then it would have looked exactly like SWG after a few months.

The reason for WOW's success isn't its IP or Bnet or any other sort of retardation that so many espouse. It is because its a good game. Period.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Grave

I'm not missing your point. I completely understand what you're saying. The point I was trying to make is, had LotRo been as fun as WoW, offered as much as WoW, it WOULD have competed. End of story. They started down the path in the beginning to mostly cater to extreme LotR fans when they decided not to have common magic users and things like that. They dug themselves into that hole. The game was just too shallow, it played sluggishly, and offered little to nothing for the hardcore gamer. These are flaws that cannot be overlooked. A game looking to compete with WoW from the earliest stages of development, will, hopefully, not make these mistakes. From what I've heard Curt say in interviews, he seems to know what he needs to do.

You're predicating these claims on presumed knowledge of what the gameplay of EITHER was going to be like. Knowledge you could NOT have possibly had until you played both. Because it presumes that LotR fans decided NOT to play it because of the factors you mentioned. Do you really believe that whats likely much more than 5 million potential fans, just suddenly decided NOT to play LotRO for various reasons? Or even TRY it for that matter?

The reasons why fantasy can compete have been stated numerous times in this thread. It's not about the genre of the IP, but about the quality of the game. Assuming solid quality, on par with WoW, a fantasy game is the most likely to succeed based on simple facts that we have seen in the past.

And for equally numerous legitemate reasons, its NO more secure than anything else. You really buy that "its like WoW so everyone will quit WoW now" shit? Quality won't matter when its only more of the same done a little different, and with a slightly varied pitch. It will NOT bring new blood into the market. If it intends to compete directly with WoW, it will NEED to bring in a built-in following of its own.

And thats before even considering what WoW will very likely accomplish from this point forward. The bar is being raised every time they release anything new. You're looking at this as if Blizzard will be doing nothing in the time it will take for a new IP to establish itself, secure a sizable fanbase, and finally release a finished product. Sorry man. You're only fooling yourself.

[Rayne]

Originally Posted by Gaereth

The reason for WOW's success isn't its IP or Bnet or any other sort of retardation that so many espouse. It is because its a good game. Period.

Well, if you want to believe that the majority of WoW's initial playerbase were seasoned mmo vets, I guess thats your prerogative.

[Rezz]

Everyone knows why WoW is doing well. It's the best game of the genre currently on the market with the largest amount of mass market appeal. You have inventive landscapes, color characters, plenty of casual and hardcore style progression and it caters to several different time availabilities. That's how you do something "right" as the kids are fond of hating to say. The IP itself didn't sell all it's boxes or keep it's 10m or whatever the current number is these days of worldwide subscribers. Nobody is going to argue that it didn't help immensely early on, but word of mouth and the constant commercialization and viral popularity of it's media has helped it spread to people who didn't even know other games like it ever existed.

I've never once heard someone mention LotRO in passing during casual conversation ever, and I hang out with a fair amount of computer nerds. I do however hear WoW anecdotes or catchphrases (fucking leeroy jenkins. Seriously, why?) a minimum of 5 times a day between work and school, usually leaning towards the 20-30. And that's from random people in random snippets of conversation.

The game is popular because it's simply the best out there, and it's going to continue to be popular as long as that is the truth. Sure it could change a lot of things for the better and it could patch better and hundreds of other wishful thinking type scenarios. But the bottom line is the IP, while strong amongst non-mmo gamers originally, didn't sell 10m boxes. The fact it was and still is better in it's "niche" than all the current competition by a longshot is why it's still the best selling mmo in history.

And I despise many of WoW's systems. But it's impossible not to see what it has done "right."

edit - There's a sizeable gaming market out there that is still relatively untapped. WoW hasn't touched numbers that many console games sell domestically let alone globally. It's a different type of game, sure, but as the computer literacy rate continues to grow as exponentially as it has been there will be more and more people interested in this type of gaming. Assuming that WoW will continue to grow as it has (from what I recall it hasn't been growing as fast as it was pre-tbc and just post-tbc) with surges around expansion, the number of potential gamers will continue to outstrip the current market offerings. New IPs shouldn't have any problem developing a large to gargantuan playerbase if they commit to similar quality and testing that WoW goes through as well as being fun.