Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Thhin

Kidnapping and Extortion

Things that just aren't possible in an MMO. Who would you kidnap? A player? That's not going to go over too well to the kidnappee who is paying a monthly fee to be bound and gagged in a closet. What if no one wants to pay the ransom? Can't extort a newb with no rich friends in the game.

I guess you could do it to NPCs but that would get pretty lame quickly unless it was worth a lot of money in which case everyone would do it.

[Grave]

I think if they just added some class-specific quests that made all classes "feel" like they were what they are, it would make most people happy.

What I mean is, keep Rogue's as DPS and such when grouping and raiding, but toss us a bone when it comes to class quests and have us picking the lock of some noble house, stealing an artifact and escaping along the rooftops.

Look at the Thief series of games, and the Assassin quests from Oblivion. It can be done in MMO form as well.

[Daezuel]

I don't see how skill systems are any harder to balance than a class system...you think WoW is balanced? hah.

UO was balanced because there was a skill cap...you just couldn't be pro in everything. Sure you get alot of fotm, but who cares if it is fun? Make enough interesting skill tree's, balance them with simple math that seems to elude most developers, and I believe you'll get something far more fun than - hey look at me I'm affliction warlock #53453456346.

As far as rogues, I would say go look at DDO. It may not be what I consider a real MMO due to its MASSIVE instancing, but the action oriented gameplay coupled with pretty cool trap mechanics and platforming elements were really full of win. In fact, gameplay wise DDO was pretty damn fun IMO. Where it fails is using the D&D character system (which works well for P&P and single player games but not MMOs), overuse of instancing, and lack of a good pvp system.

On the topic of pvp, you know why I won't try VG even though I'm bored of every current MMO? Yah, pvp...its either all or nothing, its not balanced, there are no objectives outside of straight killing, etc. Look, I enjoy interesting PVE encounters, but they are only fun the first time and it always gets old. Pvp is the spice, its basically free content for your subscribers if you set it up correctly the first time.

Please don't make the mistake of adding on pvp at the last second. If you want to compete with WoW you absolutely need to incorporate pvp from the ground up. Objective oriented and balanced pvp...sure make it optional on some servers like WoW, but make sure its there. Just no retarded honor grinds please!

[Grave]

Originally Posted by Daezuel

Please don't make the mistake of adding on pvp at the last second. If you want to compete with WoW you absolutely need to incorporate pvp from the ground up. Objective oriented and balanced pvp...sure make it optional on some servers like WoW, but make sure its there. Just no retarded honor grinds please!

And IF you're going to do PVP, plan from the beginning to separate PVP and PVE skills, or some kind of solution.

It's such bullshit when classes are nerfed because of PVP (which I don't care about or participate in other than every now and then) and the PVE game suffers because of it. You cannot balance both.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Daezuel

UO was balanced

LOL, was it really? UO was the most unbalanced game ever. There was a reason 90% of people wore plate armor, cast Corp Pors and weilded a halbred.

[Daezuel]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

LOL, was it really? UO was the most unbalanced game ever. There was a reason 90% of people wore plate armor, cast Corp Pors and weilded a halbred.

uh, if 90% of the people did the same thing than thats balance by default no?

I didn't say it was a "good" balance and for the record I never used a melee weapon in UO. :P

[Daezuel]

Basically I'll sum up my previous long post. UO+WOW+DDO = WIN.

There.

[Lourdin]

Originally Posted by Daezuel

Basically I'll sum up my previous long post. UO+WOW+DDO = WIN.

There.

That is as foolish as saying great game > good game > bad game.

You can take great elements from any MMO out there, even crappy games, combine them and get something decent out of it.

[Daezuel]

Originally Posted by Lourdin

That is as foolish as saying great game > good game > bad game.

You can take great elements from any MMO out there, even crappy games, combine them and get something decent out of it.

Sign me up!

[Grave]

Originally Posted by Lourdin

That is as foolish as saying great game > good game > bad game.

You can take great elements from any MMO out there, even crappy games, combine them and get something decent out of it.

Indeed.

Vanguard, which many consider to be complete garbage, actually has some very interesting class mechanics in my opinion. I've been messing around on it some since they activated accounts for free, and at level 7 on my Sorcerer I'm already fully capable of kiting mobs, with a short-duration AE mez I can use if things go poorly or I get a bad resist.

The game mechanics are nothing new, but my point is it's at level 7. Level 7 is boring as shit on WoW; on most MMOs, really. Vanguard gives you your class tools early, and you can actually have some fun with even the most mundane encounters. I feel this is something that should be considered in upcoming MMOs, and ties in with what I have said in this and other threads about making the player feel important and powerful early, instead of only at the end game.

[Daezuel]

I definitely don't want to see giant rats, bats, or boars anywhere in the game.

I agree, start the players off with some tools to have fun and make them feel engaged in an epic story right off the bat.

[Vatoreus]

Originally Posted by Lourdin

That is as foolish as saying great game > good game > bad game.

You can take great elements from any MMO out there, even crappy games, combine them and get something decent out of it.

Then the obvious would be to, oh, I don't know, DO IT.

Seriously, look at all the MMOs out there, ninja all the great ideas and implement them. Don't let shit take a back seat and go we'll get to it eventually. Like EQ2s pvp ability/gear system and guild system, WoW's accessibility, an open system similar to eve/UO, and a platformer style gameplay like DDO. At least, IMO.

[Daezuel]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

Then the obvious would be to, oh, I don't know, DO IT.

Seriously, look at all the MMOs out there, ninja all the great ideas and implement them. Don't let shit take a back seat and go we'll get to it eventually. Like EQ2s pvp ability/gear system and guild system, WoW's accessibility, an open system similar to eve/UO, and a platformer style gameplay like DDO. At least, IMO.

Game. Set. Match.

[Ngruk]

Originally Posted by Grave

Indeed.

Vanguard, which many consider to be complete garbage, actually has some very interesting class mechanics in my opinion. I've been messing around on it some since they activated accounts for free, and at level 7 on my Sorcerer I'm already fully capable of kiting mobs, with a short-duration AE mez I can use if things go poorly or I get a bad resist.

The game mechanics are nothing new, but my point is it's at level 7. Level 7 is boring as shit on WoW; on most MMOs, really. Vanguard gives you your class tools early, and you can actually have some fun with even the most mundane encounters. I feel this is something that should be considered in upcoming MMOs, and ties in with what I have said in this and other threads about making the player feel important and powerful early, instead of only at the end game.

Power is a relative term. Power to a crafter is the ability to steer entire markets with their goods, to PvPers it's being at the top of the food chain, to PVE'ers it's something else.

But you are entirely correct. If you have to make players play through your entire game to feel heroic and powerful you've screwed up in the 1st stages of designing your game.

Players play these games to have FUN, AND feel powerful and heroic. That's not some magic level or stage of content, that has to happen from jump street. Why can't the entire experience from creating an account to logging in, to creating your character to actually playing the game, why can't all of that at the very least be entertaining, and more often than not, fun?

It can be, but you can't be tied to someone else's timelines or budgets.

That's where much of this falls apart. Companies have budgets tied to fiscal quarters, they have to have product on the shelves, and to many upper tier management people the level of polish on your product is farther down on the food chain than we gamers want it to be.

Again, imo, it's why Blizzard has and continues to do great things. No one tells them what to do, or when to do it. You certainly have responsibilities and no one short of Bill Gates can afford an open ended design cycle, you have to have dedicated, passionate and committed people making your game, your IP, your entertainment experience.

But for me, the last piece, and maybe most important, is that to set yourself apart you have to design an entertainment EXPERIENCE and it has to be made by people that are passionate, committed and invested IN the product instead of being flexible pieces of multiple teams that can shift and move from product to product, not caring much at all about what they are working on, but rather just happy with picking up a paycheck.

I think it's one of the things we have going for us that shows every single day in our space.

[Pasteton]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Power is a relative term. Power to a crafter is the ability to steer entire markets with their goods, to PvPers it's being at the top of the food chain, to PVE'ers it's something else.

But you are entirely correct. If you have to make players play through your entire game to feel heroic and powerful you've screwed up in the 1st stages of designing your game.

Players play these games to have FUN, AND feel powerful and heroic. That's not some magic level or stage of content, that has to happen from jump street. Why can't the entire experience from creating an account to logging in, to creating your character to actually playing the game, why can't all of that at the very least be entertaining, and more often than not, fun?

It can be, but you can't be tied to someone else's timelines or budgets.

That's where much of this falls apart. Companies have budgets tied to fiscal quarters, they have to have product on the shelves, and to many upper tier management people the level of polish on your product is farther down on the food chain than we gamers want it to be.

Again, imo, it's why Blizzard has and continues to do great things. No one tells them what to do, or when to do it. You certainly have responsibilities and no one short of Bill Gates can afford an open ended design cycle, you have to have dedicated, passionate and committed people making your game, your IP, your entertainment experience.

But for me, the last piece, and maybe most important, is that to set yourself apart you have to design an entertainment EXPERIENCE and it has to be made by people that are passionate, committed and invested IN the product instead of being flexible pieces of multiple teams that can shift and move from product to product, not caring much at all about what they are working on, but rather just happy with picking up a paycheck.

I think it's one of the things we have going for us that shows every single day in our space.

It all sounds good but in the end the difficult part is actually figuring out how to achieve those things. I'm sure there were a lot of passionate people working at vanguard, and im sure they werent passionate about producing a piece of shit. There's just so much more complexity involved with making a successful product that goes beyond the realm of passion, commitment and investment and other 'power of positive thinking' words, including a lot of random uncontrollable and unforeseeable variables.

imo i think too many new mmo's are too caught up with analyzing 'what did wow do right' and instead of trying to implement wow's positive aspects, they just end up making another wow, except with clearly crappier production values since they obviously dont have as much money as blizzard. I'd like to see someone just make the game they want to without worrying about whether the mass gaming populace will find it enjoyable, and having the financial security to not have to worry about the repercussions