Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

Seriously, get some books put out surrounding the lore filled with Bob's sick ass combat descriptions. I've read every single book he's written and will read every one he puts out. Hell, my handle is taken from his last name.

If that happens, that will be the first book i have read since the mid 90's. lol

[Lonin]

Originally Posted by kcxiv

If that happens, that will be the first book i have read since the mid 90's. lol

Given Curt's earlier statements, I'm willing to bet there will be a book series within 2 years.

[Fog]

I like EVE's system, I like FFXI's system, I like Guild Wars's system. What they all have in common is that with one character, one persona, I can do everything in the game, given enough time and/or effort.

I'm not a huge roleplayer, but I get attached to a character and it really puts me off to have to create alts to get things done. I hope that whatever system you end up with, it gives you a lot of leeway to experience the whole game without making a new alt for each new thing.

[Rezz]

Yeah, identity is a huge thing. Having to roll multiple characters goes against the concept of suspension of disbelief, and I personally am not a big proponent of alts. If you told a player they could maintain their online identity further through the class system, they would pretty much unanimously vote in support of it. The few that aren't happy with their race choice (the one immutable aspect of a game world really, unless you are going with all humans and "race" is merely nationality) being the exception to this rule. Complicated questing to unlock other "jobs?" Sure, that sounds like a winner. Being able to change with relative ease between all unlocked jobs within a couple minutes? Even better. Not attaching a price-tag to role switches due to an intentionally borked economy? Hi2u orgasm.

[Grave]

Actually, I feel that being able to switch classes on the fly like that is more immersion breaking than having to roll an alt.

It just doesn't make sense from a roleplay point of view why your character could do literally anything as long as he stopped by the guild hall to switch classes first. FFXI can get away with it simply because FF has always been quirky anyway, and it established the job system in earlier games.

I think maybe a middle of the road solution would be best: multi-classing. FFXI had the subjob system and it added a great deal of depth to what you could do as your main class. It might be interesting to see what kind of combos would pop up in a more elaborate game. Possibly even allow switching between the main class and the secondary class, because at least that would make some sense from a roleplaying point of view.

[fat12]

Should put some minigame in there. Always nice to have something to do when tired of grinding etc. Make it a baseball like game where spellcasters pitch fireballs to melee who use their swords as a bat. And you can place bets with Pete the Exile.

[Fog]

Originally Posted by Grave

Actually, I feel that being able to switch classes on the fly like that is more immersion breaking than having to roll an alt.

It just doesn't make sense from a roleplay point of view why your character could do literally anything as long as he stopped by the guild hall to switch classes first. FFXI can get away with it simply because FF has always been quirky anyway, and it established the job system in earlier games.

Well, first off, I'm not a roleplayer at all and I don't care much about immersion, so I might have some bias here. But I'm not sure I see why your character shouldn't be able to switch classes. Suppose player A makes one character, Adolf, an archer, and plays it for a year. He becomes a level 60 archer. From an roleplay point of view, I guess his character has trained for a year and learned how to be a good archer, which takes a year or so to do.

Then player B. He makes Bill, a black mage. After a year of play, he's a level 60 black mage. Now suppose he plays for another year and levels up Bill along the "cleric" class path, like FFXI would allow you to do. (As opposed to creating Clara, an alt cleric, and doing the same thing on his alt.) After two years, why shouldn't he be capable of being a level 60 black mage and a level 60 cleric? His character trained for each as long as any other cleric or black mage would spend training.

In EVE, I think the process is perhaps more realistic and interesting, because if Adolf trains for ship X and then ship Y, there are skills in common which he learns along the way to ship X that will help him in ship Y too. It's not just an either/or levelling path.

[Grave]

What you're saying makes sense, but then you have to ask why after those two years he wouldn't be the Black Mage and the Cleric at the same time.

Like if you tried to put it into a novel, would it make sense for the main character who has trained for years as both a Warrior and Mage to lose his martial skills anytime he wants access to his magic?

Don't get me wrong, I'm ALL FOR advancing one character alone in as many ways as possible. I just think you can create a more believable and traditional fantasy world if characters have defined roles as they would in a story, and aren't random different things everytime you meet them.

[Fog]

Well, there's a million and one good gameplay/RP ways to restrict that. Maybe opposing schools of spells don't work together well (Fury) or maybe your character has an allocation of magical power that he has to spend to empower different lines of spells (Guild Wars attributes). Maybe you can't cast spells easily with heavy armor or a big weapon equipped. And so on.

There is some merit to the idea that it makes your character more memorable and special if you're very specialized at one thing and do that thing every time, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing gameplay fun and character advancement for that. In a broader system you just get to know your buddy Jack as the guy who is a good warrior, an OK cleric, and a shitty black mage. Maybe everyone else just knows that Jack usually plays a warrior.

[etchazz]

Originally Posted by Fog

Well, there's a million and one good gameplay/RP ways to restrict that. Maybe opposing schools of spells don't work together well (Fury) or maybe your character has an allocation of magical power that he has to spend to empower different lines of spells (Guild Wars attributes). Maybe you can't cast spells easily with heavy armor or a big weapon equipped. And so on.

There is some merit to the idea that it makes your character more memorable and special if you're very specialized at one thing and do that thing every time, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing gameplay fun and character advancement for that. In a broader system you just get to know your buddy Jack as the guy who is a good warrior, an OK cleric, and a shitty black mage. Maybe everyone else just knows that Jack usually plays a warrior.

i actually like this idea a lot. if you have to level each class up separately, it's a pretty good idea. or, maybe you can be a combo of a couple of classes, but can never be an expert at one particular class. like if you're a warrior/mage, you get to wield weapons and wear some armor, but you can't wear heavy armor and you don't get all the mage spells. kinda like a hybrid. that way someone who specializes in just being a warrior or a mage may be a tad stronger in their class, but they don't get the benefit of having multiple abilities.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by Fog

Well, there's a million and one good gameplay/RP ways to restrict that. Maybe opposing schools of spells don't work together well (Fury) or maybe your character has an allocation of magical power that he has to spend to empower different lines of spells (Guild Wars attributes). Maybe you can't cast spells easily with heavy armor or a big weapon equipped. And so on.

There is some merit to the idea that it makes your character more memorable and special if you're very specialized at one thing and do that thing every time, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing gameplay fun and character advancement for that. In a broader system you just get to know your buddy Jack as the guy who is a good warrior, an OK cleric, and a shitty black mage. Maybe everyone else just knows that Jack usually plays a warrior.

Kinda like DnD you mean? Instead of letting people have level 50 clerics and level 50 warriors in the same character they could have 25 in each for 50 total levels. This way they could use both at once and be inferior to a pure spec of each class. Just like oldschool multiclassing. Of course this would actually be more like a skill-based game instead of level-based where you end up with tank-mages. But you could pull from DnD again and do like you said, restrict powerful spell casting in armor. High fail rates or something. It's doable, but in the end I think it will end up like the original version. A few cookie cutter builds and mostly pure classes being preferred.

[Fog]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

Kinda like DnD you mean? Instead of letting people have level 50 clerics and level 50 warriors in the same character they could have 25 in each for 50 total levels. This way they could use both at once and be inferior to a pure spec of each class. Just like oldschool multiclassing. Of course this would actually be more like a skill-based game instead of level-based where you end up with tank-mages. But you could pull from DnD again and do like you said, restrict powerful spell casting in armor. High fail rates or something. It's doable, but in the end I think it will end up like the original version. A few cookie cutter builds and mostly pure classes being preferred.

Probably you are right that using multiple classes simultaneously with associated penalties in a class-based system is very hard to balance without making either the hybrids or pure classes crappy. I think Guild Wars has done the best job so far at this, but it doesn't have classes per se, just spell trees.

Keep in mind, though, the special-snowflake aspect of multiclassing stuff. Some people will love being a super-special blue dragoon warlock even if blue dragoon warlocks objectively suck dick compared to white dragoon summoners.

In any case, all that's not so important to me personally. I'm just making the case that you ought to be able to play the whole game with one character, whether that entails "switching" classes/skills or "multiclassing" them.

[Maxxius]

Well in some of the older DnD games like AOL NWN, and DSO, you had dual classes and tri-classes. With level caps at 15, it went 15/14 and 15/14/14. The pures were non-existent in those games.

[Cybsled]

AOL NWN would have been a much different beast if they had allowed for melee in PVP. Since spell casting was the only allowable PVP, CLAMS (Cleric/Mage) pretty much ruled the roost.

[Maxxius]

That was really by accident actually. It nas not intended as a pvp game until people noticed that the magic spells they cast hurt other players as well as the monters heheh.