Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Cadrid]

Despite the undying faith my parents and I have in you on the mound, Curt, there are a few issues that appear to have become epidemics within the MMO genre. I understand that this early on in development you can't possibly give much more than a cursory nod to these problems, acknowledging their presence, but nonetheless I have to get it off my chest.

First and foremost, it seems to me that developers are abhorrent to change. Everyone here knows about "The Vision(tm)", and many have sour memories of it; The Vision was FUBAR, but the EQ team decided to stay the course anyways, shrugging off players' complaints with infamous phrases like "Working as intended." Even WoW has seen its fair share of stubborn developer syndrome, where broken mechanics would go unchanged, despite hordes of fans giving mountains of proof and dozens of ideas for fixes.

I realize that your experience with MMOs has originated from a player's point of view, and that alone reassures me that GMG won't give customers the complete shaft. However, are you ready to look to your playerbase for ideas to fix and balance your game, should the time arise? Are you willing to say "We blew it with this mechanic." if the fans bring it up? Or should we all expect another "We're the ones with the professional experience, so we're right and you're wrong" attitude when people complain that Class_A turns out to be a Priest in plate, instead of the as-advertised melee support character?

Secondly, as has been mentioned before, public relations are of massive importance in the gaming industry. I'm hardly into my twenties and already I am highly cynical and jaded, mostly thanks to unfulfilled promises, poor communication, and general disconcern for fans by game developers. Pleasing everyone 100% of the time is impossible; it's a fact of life. It is possible, however, to keep most people satisfied with what you have to offer.

While being upfront and honest is a big part of the PR equation, you also have to remember that those of us on these boards are not suceptible to hype camaigns like Brad's Vanguard crusade. Yes, the general masses will gobble up screenshots and in-game clips like candy, but it's insulting to me (and others that frequent these forums) when someone comes along trying to sell their game via a travelling salesman routine. "It's slices, it dices, it has high-tech graphics! Lookit that sky! Not satisfied? Here's a teeny clip of gameplay!" While you're more than welcome here, you'll need substantive information to come around and promote your game without riling up the masses.

Lastly, you've shown you have a passion for MMO gaming, and you're no stranger to the various playstyles of MMO'ers. From casual to hardcore, different games tend to cater to different levels of gamers. Some, like WoW, attempt to please all the sects. With its success, WoW has investors licking their chops in anticipation of huge cashflows, looking to new games that will rake in the big bucks. While it's a good thing for the industry as a whole, the proof that MMOs are profitable can (and has) lead to developers looking for a way to make highly-accessible games in hopes of mimicking Blizzard's goldmine.

I'd like to know: Is your plan to make a game that is easily accessible (and thus highly profitable), even if it means dumbing down the gameplay? If so, how do you plan on satisfying the desires of hardcore players alongside the more casual and core gamers? Even WoW, despite its success, has been more of a seesaw of contentment between the gaming levels: at launch, there wasn't enough to keep hardcore players happy; as time has gone on, hardcore players have recieved more attention while the core/casual gamers have been bereft of stuff to do for quite some time.

If you aren't seeking to please everyone, what kind of audience are you currently planning to design the game towards? The more casual gamer (7-14 hour weekly playtime), the core gamer (15-24 hours weekly playtime), the hardcore gamer (25+ hours weekly playtime), or a combination of the above?

I apologize if I came off as a bit of an ass; it tends to happen when I speak my mind. I am just genuinely interested in how someone who has been on the same side of poor service as I have will deal with some of these glaring issues that have arisen.

But hey, even if you can't deal with any of those problems, thanks for helping let me witness a Red Sox World Series win in my lifetime.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Zuuljin

I just find it funny that you give WoW a free pass over 90% of your post, just because they didnt lie to you. Stick to your guns and admit WoW did the same stuff you were complaining about.

I tried making this same point a page or two back. It all comes down to whether or not you get REALLY offended from the act of lying.

Like I said before, even though Blizzard was truthful, putting out a half ass version of WoW without any endgame whatsoever doesn't really make it that much better. Some people may not have gotten as personally offended when the SoE team put out their expansions with incomplete content, but it sure felt like the same dick was in my ear again, albeit just a little more sugar-coated this time.

Originally Posted by Itzena

Speaking from an 'at work' perspective I'll take the slow, truthful worker over the liar any day of the week, and I'm pretty sure most people would as well.

Knowing that something isn't going to be finished manages expectations, and allows people to plan around it. Getting piecemeal, incomplete, poorly-done work at the last minute after repeatedly being told "It'll be on time...and it's going to be AWESOME" leads to pissed off workmates & management, and said worker being escorted off-site with his belongings if it turns out to be a habit.

Don't confuse the two; by Blizzard being the 'truthful' worker in my analogy, he still didn't have his 'Project' finished by the due date. You say knowing it wasn't going to be finished allows people to plan around it - what was the plan WoW had? To give the playerbase what they had completed and just hope to God Almighty that they can get out the things they didn't finish on time before the players have an aneurism?

Speaking from the 'at work' perspective, if someone came into a conference, and had a half ass completed project, but swore to us he'd get the rest of the project to us over the next couple of weeks, piece by piece - i'd fire his ass on the spot as quick as i'd fire the guy who lied about the completion of his project. Sure Blizzard eventually put out the rest of their game, are you trying to tell me that this is supposed to be 'ok' just because someone else did what you feel to be 'worse'?

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by FohMD

If you're going to try to refute 2 (good luck refuting 1), please provide the context and the quote (you can paraphrase it...I'm not a stickler on this point).

Sure. I'll try on this one, although I am not sure if it will meet your requirements for who said what.

1> Ester the Tester and Abashi both stated that Cloth Caps dropping off the warders in Sleepers tomb was working as intended. Everyone knew that the cloth cap was a default loot drop when the loot table wasn't finished. I guess if you look at it from a sinister point of view, it was working as intended if you take the fact that warders should be dropping cloth caps, since the loot table was not in.

2> When The Combine "exploited" the 4th warder, and a naked human graphic popped up when the sleeper awoke, then nothing happened and a couple zones crashed -- Brad McQuaid came on to say after the mass bannings that the reason for the Naked Human popping was a result of "re-doing" the artwork for Kerafyrm when the entire script was not finished, nor was the artwork to begin with. In the meantime, Z-Axis exploiting was used everywhere else without a hitch. Only when it called SOE to the floor on an unfinished expansion did it matter. (IE: The dain still being pulled through a wall down to the pit)

3> Vex Thal. They stated (Do not have names on this one) that the zone was in and functional. The key cock block on this was a key part in Maiden's eye if I believe (May have been another zone - my memory is hazy on this one) which was fixed 6 months later miracously at the same time the loot table and graphic files for Vex Thal went in. Meanwhile, people unfortunately kept trying to camp for that key part which was not going to drop.

4> Plane of Mischief. Ester the Tester and Abashi both stated this zone was working as intended, and people have not figured out the mystery of the cards. Meanwhile, 4 months later, the loot table goes in and a new NPC appears in Rivervale to make the card quest combinations actually possible. As a result people spent 4 months trying to figure out something that didn't exist.

5> Planes of Power: Already mentioned. But to go one step further, a person named "Tayl0r" who worked QA at the time on the Planes of Power expansion, who we all knew worked for SOE and was now a database monkey, stated on the Something Awful forums that Planes of Power and Plane of Time was fully finished on release and just had minor bugs. We all know that isn't true.

6> Star Wars Galaxies: Jedi. 6 months later they were released as the major data files were patched in at the same time a Jedi was born. Meanwhile, many employees from Koster to Q3P0 stated time and time again that people were getting closer. Even though it wasn't even in the game.

7> EQ2: Froglok quest. Stated many times that this quest was indeed live in the game, people asked SOE about it just to make sure, were told yes, and proceeded to waste 6 months trying to figure out a quest with no ending. Later it was patched in to the disgust of it's fanbase.

8> Brad stating that the Fiery Avenger quest was in and working, no one had figured it out. Well, no one goes on to ever figure it out or even find the start of this quest, then later, epic weapon quests go in for every class including FA. When asked even years later if he can tell us what that quest entailed, it falls on deaf ears. Speculation here, but a good guess considering everything else that happened in EQ, that there never was a quest and he lied about it.

You may say these are "communication" errors. And if they were on small details of events I would agree with you that it could very well be the case. But these are major points in major expansions or releases, you cannot tell me that someone, somewhere, didn't see what was being done/said and didn't step in to stop it. Ester and Abashi were mouthpieces. They were funneled information from higher ups during this process anyway, and after one discussion with a very well known community manager, I was told that she was outright told to lie to deter players from causing uproars in the community forums because it was bad for sales.

To answer Zuuljin's question: Yes. The lying is what does it for me. I hope you and everyone can understand that.

I understand pressures about getting a game out, and I understand that sometimes things aren't going to be able to make it and no matter how hard the devs push, upper management doesn't care and they force the release. But what seperates Blizzard from SOE in my eyes here is that Blizzard still came out with one of the most polished games in MMORPG history once you got passed the server problems and played the game, and if something wasn't in, or a feature never made it in, they didn't lie about it.

SOE did. Time and time again. So I guess if you can imagine a line in the sand drawn after releasing unfinished content, features, etc, and move it up a bit to when it comes to being held accountable, if you tell the truth you can move the line up more, and if you lie, draw the line right there.

[Neric]

From all unfinished expansions, Luclin was the worst.

Add to the list:
- Sanctus Seru was 80% unpopulated
- the storyline Katta vs. Seru was missing
- Acrylia B wasn't finished

PoP was better, but unfinished also. PoWar was missing entirely* and I am not even sure if PoTime got released the way it was intended. Seems to me that PoTime A NPCs were initially meant to be killed, but the content didn't make the deadline.

* the files were existing though (checked them with a zone viewer) and it was a great zone!

[Froofy-D]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Oh and btw, I have ridden him mercilessly about the mullet, which he no longer has and claims vehemently that it is NOT a mullet. His wife comes to his defense but I ain't buying it!

Actually he doesnt have a mullet. Mullet is short in front and long in the back. R.A.'s is all 1 length. For example:

Mullet:



Mullet:



Not a mullet:

[James]

It's a mullet. Everything with long hair is a mullet. Long hair is for chicks and gay dudes.

2> When The Combine "exploited" the 4th warder, and a naked human graphic popped up when the sleeper awoke, then nothing happened and a couple zones crashed -- Brad McQuaid came on to say after the mass bannings that the reason for the Naked Human popping was a result of "re-doing" the artwork for Kerafyrm when the entire script was not finished, nor was the artwork to begin with. In the meantime, Z-Axis exploiting was used everywhere else without a hitch. Only when it called SOE to the floor on an unfinished expansion did it matter. (IE: The dain still being pulled through a wall down to the pit)

Yo, I'm not sure who The Combine are other than an in-game faction, but it was FoH that awoke the Human Sleeper and Conquest that got bannz0red for z-axis sploits and such some time later.

[Kaxmax]

Originally Posted by Zuuljin

So everything you just complained about above is fine and dandy as long as they tell you up front all that shit is going to be missing?

For me personally, yes. Obviously I'd rather have a complete game from the start, but that doesn't seem to be acheivable by anyone yet. In this case, I'll take the lesser of two evils. If I know something isn't in the game and I get a reasonable timeline as to when it's going to be there, at least I know what I'm getting. I know that BWL isn't there, and I'm going to be stuck in MC & UBRS for the conceivable future. If that's not enough for me, I can choose to stop playing/paying until they add it (which I did, actually).

Contrast that with "It's in, you just haven't found it yet." In this scenario I waste time trying to complete something that can't be completed, completely in the dark until months later. It's a great way to keep people paying those monthly dues, but it leaves a bad taste when you realize you've been duped.

[Man0warr]

I doubt we will ever see a completely finished MMORPG at release if you are counting content. Even if all the dungeons Blizzard has patched in since release were in game at release, people would still complain there wasn't enough content, you will never have 'enough' content in that sense.

As far as everything else, I think Blizzard came pretty close to finishing WoW for release. Animations, combat system, quest system, leveling enjoyment and in general - Polish.

[keflex]

Originally Posted by Asmadai

When I picture WoW and EQ, I see two people sitting at a desk.

One claims he'll have his stuff ready by the project due date, but come due date, only parts of the project are complete. If you ask him about the incompleteness, he'll tell you 'oh it's complete; i'm serious.'

The other acknowledges the fact that there is a due date, but flat out tells you he won't have the project complete by then. Slowly, after the project was already due, he brings the completed numbers and pie graphs that were missing to the table.

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I really can't tell which one i'd hate more. I guess it all comes down to how bad you hate being lied to. I don't mind it all that much; not near as much as some. Blizzard was upfront sure, but I wouldn't say that 'truth' outweighed 'incompleteness' here.

The problem w/ being lied to and being told that "hey, it's finished" is that you have no reasonable expectations of what the outcome will be. When Blizzard said, "hey, BWL isn't going to be in release", sure it pissed people off, but they also didn't waste time trying to unlock a secret raid zone (which may have happened if Blizzard did tell them it was in-game) or some other nonsense. They could farm lower level instances, take a break from WoW or do whatever they pleased, because they knew they weren't missing out on anything.

Compare this to the Rathe where guilds were beating their heads non-stop against the wall only to find out later on down the road that the reason the encounter was so hard was to give SOE a chance to complete Plane of Time. In essence, those guilds did nothing but waste time trying to beat a broken encounter. Time spent trying to beat a cockblock would've been better time spent gearing up in actually completeable raid zones -- IF the playerbase had known.

It's like this, if I take my car to get it's oil changed and the guy tells me, "hey, it's going to take longer than we expected -- hold tight and we'll get it done as soon as we can" it's a hell of a lot better than them saying, "sure, we'll get your oil changed in 15 minutes" and then, not even change my oil, but also lie about having changed it.

[Gallenite]

Originally Posted by Utnayan

Sure. I'll try on this one, although I am not sure if it will meet your requirements for who said what.
5> Planes of Power: Already mentioned. But to go one step further, a person named "Tayl0r" who worked QA at the time on the Planes of Power expansion, who we all knew worked for SOE and was now a database monkey, stated on the Something Awful forums that Planes of Power and Plane of Time was fully finished on release and just had minor bugs. We all know that isn't true.

7> EQ2: Froglok quest. Stated many times that this quest was indeed live in the game, people asked SOE about it just to make sure, were told yes, and proceeded to waste 6 months trying to figure out a quest with no ending. Later it was patched in to the disgust of it's fanbase.

I was tangentially involved with the first and definitely around for the second.

I'm the last guy who's going to dive headlong into "SOE is the devil!"

However, I will say this much.

In both of the above cases, you have a single person making a single definitive statment saying what they believe to be true, simply trying to be helpful and that statement getting latched onto and turning out in the worst of ways.

Unfortunately, neither person who made the statements in the above examples was aware that they weren't right because they weren't directly involved in the subject matter they were discussing.

Don't underestimate people's desire to be nice and overestimate people's desire to be sinister. In both of these cases, the poster was genuinely trying to be helpful and encouraging.

[findar]

i wonder why no one higher up caught wind of this and said "hey you got it backwards, its not finished yet tell them that."

[Soygen]

Originally Posted by findar

i wonder why no one higher up caught wind of this and said "hey you got it backwards, its not finished yet tell them that."

It's pretty obvious that the higher-ups were too busy drinking the blood of unbaptised children(or something equally sinister).

[Nakilos]

Unfortunately, neither person who made the statements in the above examples was aware that they weren't right because they weren't directly involved in the subject matter they were discussing.

Why didn't those people find out the correct information though. I mean as much as Blizzard can be fuck ups, I can't think of anything they outright lied about, only statements which were made and later retracted when found to be incorrect shortly after (see Eyonix comments about t3 in the expansion for example). They do have a trail of broken promises, but no blatant lies.

[Asmadai]

Originally Posted by Gallenite

I was tangentially involved with the first and definitely around for the second.

I'm the last guy who's going to dive headlong into "SOE is the devil!"

However, I will say this much.

In both of the above cases, you have a single person making a single definitive statment saying what they believe to be true, simply trying to be helpful and that statement getting latched onto and turning out in the worst of ways.

Unfortunately, neither person who made the statements in the above examples was aware that they weren't right because they weren't directly involved in the subject matter they were discussing.

Don't underestimate people's desire to be nice and overestimate people's desire to be sinister. In both of these cases, the poster was genuinely trying to be helpful and encouraging.

I'll believe it. That is exactly one of the speculated reasons some have come up with for all of the incompleteness of the EQ expansions. The people who told the 'lies' to the public were really just PR people and didn't have first hand knowledge of the completeness or lack thereof, and were just telling the people exactly what they wanted to hear.

I currently work for a corporation, and tho it may not be as big as SoE (Washington Mutual Bank if you want to get specific) i've still seen MANY many things of this nature happen around here all the time. Thousands upon thousands of dollars wasted, all because someone told someone something that they didn't have 100% knowledge on. It happens, and it's very understandable for me. I can only imagine the kind of confusion that can breed when you have to deal with a public release date, and having to try to satisfy customers 24 hours a day.

Originally Posted by keflex

It's like this, if I take my car to get it's oil changed and the guy tells me, "hey, it's going to take longer than we expected -- hold tight and we'll get it done as soon as we can" it's a hell of a lot better than them saying, "sure, we'll get your oil changed in 15 minutes" and then, not even change my oil, but also lie about having changed it.

No, it's more like if you took your car to get the oil changed, and the guy gives you either the SoE Response, "Sure, we'll get your oil changed in 15 minutes" as opposed to the Blizzard Response of "Hey, it's going to take longer than expected -- I'll need you to come back every Tuesday for the next 2 years while we slowly finish the work on your car. You might find yourself having nothing to do for a while, but, well, sorry - at least we didn't lie to you."

[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Gallenite

Don't underestimate people's desire to be nice and overestimate people's desire to be sinister. In both of these cases, the poster was genuinely trying to be helpful and encouraging.

I would understand that explanation a lot better if the key content in question didn't get answered on for months at a time. Basically from what I am gathering from your post, and I am trying not to step on toes or make you upset when I say this:

Are you trying to tell me that you never saw the postings in question with regards to Planes of Power and the Frogloks until you actually put the content in 6 and 7 months later respectively? If you did, why didn't you correct it personally? If you didn't, how could you not see it? And if not you, did anyone else who works there see what was posted? They had to have... Some of the examples I have given were some of the most talked about topics in the game in their times.