Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Draegan]

If your hardcore game is not all about tedium and raiding and more about difficult gameplay mechanics I'm all for it.

But if your hardcore MMO just forces me to play with 5 other peolpe 5 hours a day to gain 1/4 a level then I'm gonna have to say no to that, and it wouldn't be successful.

[Dennadyne]

Originally Posted by Draegan

If your hardcore game is not all about tedium and raiding and more about difficult gameplay mechanics I'm all for it.

But if your hardcore MMO just forces me to play with 5 other peolpe 5 hours a day to gain 1/4 a level then I'm gonna have to say no to that, and it wouldn't be successful.

Well, for one I do thoroughly enjoy the raid mechanics of the past few expansions with original EQ, it is completely different from the raiding days of old. It is a little more twitchy, but not too crazy, takes a lot of coordination. I would like to see that implemented into other aspects of the game, not just raiding.

As far as the time goes, you should get out of a game what you put into it. That is how I feel on the matter. You can do just fine in most MMO's with an hour or two a night, for a couple nights a week, but if you want to be a 'badass' you will need to put in more time.

[Cybsled]

"Difficult" gameplay mechanics are a dicey issue. You can't make the game unintuitive, or it's just bad game design. See WW2 Online for a perfect example of what not to do...you had to do 3 separate things just to fire a fucking rifle.

Lets look at a game like Starcraft. It's easy to get into, but there's a huge difference between what some noob who plays Big Game Hunters 24/7 vs. what some gosu Korean player like Boxer or Nada. Does the fact that noobs can play Starcraft detract from the pro league? Not in the slightest. A well designed game has easy to use features in general, but allows for a skilled player to actually take full advantage of them.

[Dennadyne]

Originally Posted by Cybsled

"Difficult" gameplay mechanics are a dicey issue. You can't make the game unintuitive, or it's just bad game design. See WW2 Online for a perfect example of what not to do...you had to do 3 separate things just to fire a fucking rifle.

Lets look at a game like Starcraft. It's easy to get into, but there's a huge difference between what some noob who plays Big Game Hunters 24/7 vs. what some gosu Korean player like Boxer or Nada. Does the fact that noobs can play Starcraft detract from the pro league? Not in the slightest. A well designed game has easy to use features in general, but allows for a skilled player to actually take full advantage of them.

Pretty good comparison. Now how to implement it?

[Azzikai]

Originally Posted by Draegan

So you would rather have two sections in a journal or quest log that has "Quests" and "Task" just divide them into two different windows? I think you're just arguing semantics like you said.

LOTRO did a good job where they had "quests" for each zone. Then "Chapter Quests" that drove the story.

Nope, that isn't what I want at all.

If I have a quest journal I want it to have notes on actual quests. Not a list of "Bob the grocer likes bear meat, get him 5". That sort of shit should be more dynamic, for lack of a better term.

I kill a bear. I get a nice fluffy pelt from it. Someone in the city is going to want that pelt, maybe I should go ask someone about it. Maybe there is a trapper NPC out in the wild who will trade me for it. The end result will be the same but instead of "quest 7, retrieve 5 pelts...done!" I get to interact with the NPCs that inhabit the game world. Tie it into faction, get a better price, have it like the stupid curscale quest and get some crap armor from it. Something, anything other than "Bear pelt 7/10" showing up on my screen.

If you're designing a game for a playerbase that is too stupid to equate bear meat to the butcher in the local village and retain that information then why bother? They already have that game, as has been said previously, it doesn't need to be duplicated.

[Lonin]

Originally Posted by Azzikai

Nope, that isn't what I want at all.

If I have a quest journal I want it to have notes on actual quests. Not a list of "Bob the grocer likes bear meat, get him 5". That sort of shit should be more dynamic, for lack of a better term.

I kill a bear. I get a nice fluffy pelt from it. Someone in the city is going to want that pelt, maybe I should go ask someone about it. Maybe there is a trapper NPC out in the wild who will trade me for it. The end result will be the same but instead of "quest 7, retrieve 5 pelts...done!" I get to interact with the NPCs that inhabit the game world. Tie it into faction, get a better price, have it like the stupid curscale quest and get some crap armor from it. Something, anything other than "Bear pelt 7/10" showing up on my screen.

If you're designing a game for a playerbase that is too stupid to equate bear meat to the butcher in the local village and retain that information then why bother? They already have that game, as has been said previously, it doesn't need to be duplicated.

Supposedly, WAR has quests that are somewhat like that, but I can't speak from experience. I totally agree with you though, the menial task-style quests should be much more end-loaded. IE, you go out and kill shit that you would normally, or because it's necessary to complete a more involved quest, and get random items from the mobs. Then when you get back to the city, an NPC you pass by will start shouting that he's looking to buy X item that you just picked up, or maybe the NPC tells you that he heard the local merchant was looking for that random item. I'm not sure how the coding would work on this, but it seems like it would be pretty straight forward. Does character have bear pelt while in vicinity of NPC? If yes, NPC shouts shit at him, if no, do nothing.

This leads me to something else, MMO's need cities like Assassin's Creed. When I walk around Qeynos or Freeport, why the fuck do I only see 20 people and another 20 NPCs? These are supposed to be gigantic, bustling centers of commerce in the game world, and they are always ghost towns. I don't care if 90% of the NPCs do nothing but walk around like in Assassin's Creed, but it does a lot to add immersiveness to the game world.

[Cybsled]

Because Creed is a single player game and (insert MMO here) is not. 1000 NPCs+Players all milling around sounds leet, but unless the game servers + the players comp can handle that, it just makes for an unplayable lagfest.

[Twobit Whore]

Just come to my server and hang out in Stormwind. Always like 50 people in the main square between the bank, flightmaster and auction house.

[Draegan]

Originally Posted by Lonin

Supposedly, WAR has quests that are somewhat like that, but I can't speak from experience. I totally agree with you though, the menial task-style quests should be much more end-loaded. IE, you go out and kill shit that you would normally, or because it's necessary to complete a more involved quest, and get random items from the mobs. Then when you get back to the city, an NPC you pass by will start shouting that he's looking to buy X item that you just picked up, or maybe the NPC tells you that he heard the local merchant was looking for that random item. I'm not sure how the coding would work on this, but it seems like it would be pretty straight forward. Does character have bear pelt while in vicinity of NPC? If yes, NPC shouts shit at him, if no, do nothing.

This is a great idea. I like it. But after a while it'll turn into repeatable quests WOW has. You go out and farm X and you know NPC A.B.C need it. It's ultimately the same thing but just worded differently and executed differently. You're still collecting bear asses, but you're "selling them" after the fact instead of going out and picking them off a list.

Same result for an experienced player. But for me I'd start to get pissed off if I'm out doing story line quests and all of the sudden I find that a guy in town need X amount of pelts and I only haver X-2 and I have to go back to where I was and waste time getting 2 more of those things. I'd rather know ahead of time.

And yes WAR does this to some degree. It was in one of the podcasts.

[etchazz]

i wouldn't mind a combination of EQ like quests and WoW's. i really did like how obscure EQ's quests were. there was no, "okay, you gave me 3 rat tails now go visit so and so in kaladim for the next part of your quest." i like that you had to figure some shit out for yourself. i didn't like how lame most of the quest rewards were and i do think that some of the EQ quests were too obscure (as in, what the fuck do i do next?) but i like that i wasn't hand held through the entire quest.

one of my favorite quests was the staff of the wheel quest i did with my wizard. was long and hard but really fun to do and i felt really good when i completed the quest. i also liked finishing my epic. i like quests that give you a sense of accomplishment, as long as the reward at the end is worth it. i can't see why a next gen MMO couldn't implement a very unique and interesting quest system. maybe a few simple ones to start you off with when you're lower level but then gradually get more complicated and difficult to complete as you get higher in level. i don't mind a certain amount of collection quests, or kill mob "X" this many times quests, just give me some variety. i don't want to be doing those same kind of quests when i'm max level. give me something more challenging as the game progresses.

[Ngruk]

Check out the contest button on the front page of 38 Studios | World Domination Through Gaming for any college students in the state of Mass.

[Vatoreus]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

...college students in the state of Mass.

This is my sadface.

[Tyen]

Originally Posted by Vatoreus

This is my sadface.

Sad Munch?

[Cybsled]

Too bad I'm not at UMass anymore ;(

i really did like how obscure EQ's quests were.

EQ1 had a couple decent quests (I always liked the Qeynos Investigator line), but by and large they were totally shit. Essentially you had "brute force questing" becoming the means to actually find anything. Spam 1000 words or phrases at random NPCs, IDing every piece of shit lore item that dropped, trying to find step 5 so you could figure out where the fuck step 4 was. Plug all this crap into a website or forum, and voila, walkthroughs for everyone! Baibai "hard quest".

[Agraza]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

I'll throw another 'hot topic'.
Quest limits?
Why?
I get the tech side of this now, but from a design standpoint is there a reason for limiting the amount of quests I can have ongoing at one time?

I am more interested in players perspectives than solutions.

I didn't realize this was a hot topic. To my knowledge most players buy whatever reason devs care to give for their existence. Complaints about their usability are common, despite it being an improvement over the lack of a log at all. Mods for quest logs to make them more user-friendly are common. Regardless of how you limit the amount of quests players are completing, making it a solid tool is in your interest.

There are other ways WoW and EQ2 limit quests. In WoW there are faction requirements and level minimums, as well as nested quests. I believe EQ2 has all of the above and I think they have level maximums as well. Or they may have when I was playing anyway.

As long as I have enough space to obtain and complete the quests in a given area and a little extra room for holding onto stubborn or multi-stage quests, I don't mind there being a limit.