Green Monster Games (Curt Schilling)

[Lenardo]

but dennadyne, harsh deathpenalties while ok to you, would NOT be ok for the vast majority of mmo players in existance- especially when you consider that those people have experience in wow.

eq2 had xp loss/gravestones for recovery and people hated it
vanguard had xploss, durability ANd a corpse run...and people hated it

wow had durability loss & a risk free corpse run via ghost mode-if you choose not to go the gy ress route- and it is accepted by a vast majority as "the standard" now. can this change? sure it can, but Currently if you came out with a mmo with exp loss AND Required corpse runs, the gameplay better fucking blow me away because I wouldn't play that game.

i played eq and i HATED corpse runs pre-cleric epic. sure my char got duped once or twice this way (zone crash after a wipe, we all login ALIVE fully dressed,,,with corpses on the ground. but WoW changed this.

eq2 had corpse runs- sorta- and exp debt loss (exp loss done slightly differently- at release. it is the same way now? no, because wow has changed what is desired by a player for a death gameplay mechanic.

would i play a mmo with perm death? maybe- again if the gameplay is sufficiently good i'd give it a shot, otherwise, not a chance.

[Azzikai]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

"Hard core" players want the exp loss of EQ, most others don't. Bottom line is death 'allows' you to take away from players, which is something most players don't and won't like. The puzzle to solve is how much and what can you take to make it worth risking again, and make it believable and fun.

I am not now and never was "hard core". I'm about as middle of the road as you can get when it comes to these games. I still prefer harsher death penalties.

Take EQ, I liked that you could lose your corpse. It meant that you were not going to be wandering off to places completely above your ability level without back-up unless you were a total idiot. The downside of that, though, is that you may have taken all the precautions in the world and still ended up with a corpse in an impossible spot. Which meant find a necro and pay a lot of cash for them to come get you. Doing that with an entire raid? Ugh.

Later on they added the corpse summoning NPCs and the graveyard instance and I think that was a great happy medium. You still had corpse runs but if you got into an impossible spot, had a raid wipe beyond belief or really just didn't have time to go back and get your stuff you didn't have to. It gave you the choice, a riskier retrieval at no monetary cost or a money-sink. Granted, you still have the XP loss to deal with but even the most casual of players could find a rez in the guild hall.

[Noah EQ2]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

I think it's important to note that a lot of the questions you initially asked don't pertain to everyone in a game world. Death does. Death will effect every player that ever plays your game.

Should death be a penalty? Should it be rewarded? I would think you would want to design a world where death is at the edge of your content creation and design, always lurking for the unprepared or overanxious. Death being commonplace makes it, well, common.

You make some good points and ask some good questions.

I guess I wonder what that truly 'perfect' death system is, and I think the answer is tied completely and solely to the game you are making. Not that I didn't already know that, but the feedback, even in just these few answers since the question was posed, are illuminating.

"Hard core" players want the exp loss of EQ, most others don't. Bottom line is death 'allows' you to take away from players, which is something most players don't and won't like. The puzzle to solve is how much and what can you take to make it worth risking again, and make it believable and fun.

Gameworld aside~

People in the MMO market place today have little to no patience. I even find myself falling into this trap. Death in EQ2 and WoW is "annoying". Death in EQ1 was "traumatic". When I die in WoW/EQ2, its just travel time and waiting. When I died in EQ1 it was political and emotional.

In eq1, the game was like walking on eggshells at times. You valued a "good healer" or "crowd control" because a death would wipe out your efforts for the past few hours/days. Death forced you to be good. It was a true penalty at a high magnatude. It forced you to care about dying and do all that it took to prevent it. It was a kick in the groin.

In Eq2/WoW, it is just a time sink. Just run back or click a "5 min afk". If you are in a group and wipe, just revive and run back. It is the same mechanic used in consol / single person games. You die/game over - reload save point and/or restart at the beginning of the level. Annoying and basic.

No matter the world, your target audience is what really needs to be the focus. Adding "spirit traveling" is a cool gimik but it is easy for Joe Saturday Player to understand it and not require 2hrs to get his stuff back or take a loss because Tigermob_01 added while he was killing a boar.

Boils down to an audiance. Do you want tough mechanics in to attract "hardcore" people? What is the risk? What is the benefit to the game? Have you ever heard a "hardcore" player say he/she didn't like a game because the death mechanics were to easy on people?

Easier death mechanics please a lot more people than hard penalties. The game should be a challenge that creates greater emotion when you are successful vs when you are defeated. We hardcore are just messed up and like to get beat with a stick/whips/chains.

[etchazz]

Originally Posted by Noah EQ2

Gameworld aside~

People in the MMO market place today have little to no patience. I even find myself falling into this trap. Death in EQ2 and WoW is "annoying". Death in EQ1 was "traumatic". When I die in WoW/EQ2, its just travel time and waiting. When I died in EQ1 it was political and emotional.

In eq1, the game was like walking on eggshells at times. You valued a "good healer" or "crowd control" because a death would wipe out your efforts for the past few hours/days. Death forced you to be good. It was a true penalty at a high magnatude. It forced you to care about dying and do all that it took to prevent it. It was a kick in the groin.

In Eq2/WoW, it is just a time sink. Just run back or click a "5 min afk". If you are in a group and wipe, just revive and run back. It is the same mechanic used in consol / single person games. You die/game over - reload save point and/or restart at the beginning of the level. Annoying and basic.

No matter the world, your target audience is what really needs to be the focus. Adding "spirit traveling" is a cool gimik but it is easy for Joe Saturday Player to understand it and not require 2hrs to get his stuff back or take a loss because Tigermob_01 added while he was killing a boar.

Boils down to an audiance. Do you want tough mechanics in to attract "hardcore" people? What is the risk? What is the benefit to the game? Have you ever heard a "hardcore" player say he/she didn't like a game because the death mechanics were to easy on people?

Easier death mechanics please a lot more people than hard penalties. The game should be a challenge that creates greater emotion when you are successful vs when you are defeated. We hardcore are just messed up and like to get beat with a stick/whips/chains.

i agree 100%. the only MMO i ever played where death actually "hurt" was EQ1. there were no graveyards or ghost runs. you died somewhere far from your bind point, and it was your ass. you had to pray you could make it back to your corpse and not die again along the way, or that a very kind pally or cleric would come by and rez you. if death doesn't mean anything, then risk doesn't mean anything. in wow i used to go exploring all the time just to open up my map. it didn't matter how many times i died because i could just go in ghost form back to my corpse and continue on until i died again, which still didn't mean anything. i remember the first time i went from greater fay the whole way to qeynos in EQ1. now that was an adventure. i was scared as hell the entire time because i didn't know what would happen if i died along the way. there was an actual fear that i may lose my corpse and not be able to get it back.

i believe it's all about risk vs. reward. if the risk isn't very great, then the reward doesn't mean very much.

[Noah EQ2]

Originally Posted by etchazz

i agree 100%. the only MMO i ever played where death actually "hurt" was EQ1. there were no graveyards or ghost runs. you died somewhere far from your bind point, and it was your ass. you had to pray you could make it back to your corpse and not die again along the way, or that a very kind pally or cleric would come by and rez you. if death doesn't mean anything, then risk doesn't mean anything. in wow i used to go exploring all the time just to open up my map. it didn't matter how many times i died because i could just go in ghost form back to my corpse and continue on until i died again, which still didn't mean anything. i remember the first time i went from greater fay the whole way to qeynos in EQ1. now that was an adventure. i was scared as hell the entire time because i didn't know what would happen if i died along the way. there was an actual fear that i may lose my corpse and not be able to get it back.

i believe it's all about risk vs. reward. if the risk isn't very great, then the reward doesn't mean very much.

It did make memories.... /who all cleric 46 50 (looks to see one in the zone I died in). Don't be fooled in thinking fondly of those days.... getting shot with a BB gun at age 10 by your brother is probably a funny memory you can chat about years later but when it happened, it hurt like a bitch for days but you didn't keep doing it because "it will be nostalgic".

[Twobit Whore]

EQ's death penalty was fucking retarded and I don't see how people can defend it. Maybe EXP loss can work, but the way it was done in EQ certainly didn't. Anything that hurts low-mid level players the most while high-capped players didn't even flinch is busted, plain and simple.

WoW's death 'penalty' is much more inline with how it should be. The higher level you are and better gear you have, the more death affects you. You go for better rewards and when you fail you pay a higher price as opposed to going for the best rewards and getting a 96% rez when you fail.

[Agraza]

As Rezz mentioned earlier, durability loss either via use or upon death places a limit on how long you can stay away from a repair vendor, which is usually in a town. I hate that.

In EQ1 I would log on in my XP area, get a group, grind it out, log back off there. I even bound myself there depending on my class and the location. I would stockpile food and water when I went to town, sell the few gizmos I looted and perhaps turn in some +faction items I got. Then I'd spend the next 60+ hours out in the wilderness again. I really hate having to go "home" every few hours, and I also dislike there being a bunch of small outposts all over the place as well.

I haven't thought about how to design around this desire and keep modern conveniences like universal respawn points that many games use now (graveyards, tree of life, stations, etc.). I don't think my desires clash with the modular "log on, get shit done, log back off" mentality MMOs are being designed around now. I acted that way in EQ1. I think it was less hassle to log on in the XP area, get some XP, and log back off nearby than it is to griffin ride/bell/teleport from town to go join the group I signed up with and then head back home at the end of the day. It's also a lot less fun and "immersive" for me. Fuck towns. They're annoying. Especially so in queer games that make you visit multiple vendors to offload your shit and, if necessary, repair different pieces of equipment.

Whatever the death penalty is I would like the result to be my continued sustainability in the environment of my choosing. Repair breaks for raiding/grouping/soloing are more annoying to me than xp debt/loss.

I'm not at all hardcore in my feelings on corpse recovery. It was completely retarded in EQ1. It is a little bit too convenient in WoW, but I'd rather err on the side of weaksauce than hardcore. Naked running past assrape mobs to get your stuff is the lowest of low. Losing your ghost form invulnerability in the middle of the area that killed you to begin with is prone to similar issues. Give me my stuff or a secure method of getting it regardless of other penalties inherent to death. Logging off the moment I died to some frustrating battle without fear of losing my equipment and inventory should be an option 100% of the time.

[etchazz]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

EQ's death penalty was fucking retarded and I don't see how people can defend it. Maybe EXP loss can work, but the way it was done in EQ certainly didn't. Anything that hurts low-mid level players the most while high-capped players didn't even flinch is busted, plain and simple.

WoW's death 'penalty' is much more inline with how it should be. The higher level you are and better gear you have, the more death affects you. You go for better rewards and when you fail you pay a higher price as opposed to going for the best rewards and getting a 96% rez when you fail.

are you serious? you think a few gold is a good penalty? in EQ you lost a ton of exp and you could even lose your level. when i quit playing Wow i had so much gold i could die 400 times before it would even put a dent in my bank account. dying in WoW is a joke. you die, ghost back to your corpse and lose a few coin, or just summon your corpse to a GY. yeah, that's real risk there.

[Cybsled]

WoW's death penalty scales, which is important to remember. For the average player, it's a PITA but not a game buster. You have to run back, maybe rebuff. The catch is in dungeons, where there is a possibility of respawn. You die for 2 hrs, no biggie. You die beyond that, and shit starts to respawn and you have to reclear.

For raiders, you lose out on LOTS of gold (repairs + consumables) + you risk reclears for certain encounters. This is magnified by your raid force...you might not be bugged by it, but keeping 25+ players motivated to keep playing that night becomes harder and harder.

The golden rule I think needs to be remembered is that, in the end, it's a game. Games, usually, are supposed to be fun When the game starts to feel like a chore or a job, it's not fun anymore...and you're more likely to stop playing. For games like EQ1, this was a problem because the chore/job was a core game mechanic (kill stuff). I do like the freedom in WoW of being able to just log the fuck off when I get really frustrated. No having to stay around for CR, no begging/pleading for a rescue/res, etc. You lose at your present goal, but your guy will still be there in the morning ready to tackle it again (although with raiding, this requires more farming/gold...). EQ1 was always a chore...I hated those damned 4 hour CRs going on past midnight, when I just wanted to goto bed.

you die, ghost back to your corpse and lose a few coin, or just summon your corpse to a GY. yeah, that's real risk there.

If you're just diddling around doing PUG crap, sure. But WoW does have a pretty harsh raider penalty: You don't get your mob, and you gotta farm alot. In a way, that works well. Raiders usually = hardcore, and hardcore = the ones who want to be punched in the nuts with a hammer.

[Twobit Whore]

Originally Posted by etchazz

are you serious? you think a few gold is a good penalty? in EQ you lost a ton of exp and you could even lose your level. when i quit playing Wow i had so much gold i could die 400 times before it would even put a dent in my bank account. dying in WoW is a joke. you die, ghost back to your corpse and lose a few coin, or just summon your corpse to a GY. yeah, that's real risk there.

What do/did people at level cap in EQ risk? Honestly. Raiders faced almost zero penalty. To think otherwise is just silly.

So that whole risk-reward argument is moot. You go for the greatest reward and faced the least risk and frankly that is a busted system. WoW may not be perfect but it's leaps and bounds better than EQ from a scaling standpoint.

[Ngruk]

I would argue that it was not 'retarded' in EQ, until we had something with which to compare it to. At the time it was all we knew, and it was 'normal'.

Trust me, as a monk I suffered as much as anyone by that system but it also spawned a lot of funny memories.

Funny thing is those memories are exactly like the BB gun story, they are funny now, were funny then, but they'd suck horribly if they were in fact the game play today.

The genre has moved on but the acceptable levels of discomfort you put on players through game systems is a moving target, very much niche specific in my opinion. What one group wants is another groups worst nightmare and vice versa.

"Hard core" players tend to think there is really only one way to make a hard core game and that's with as much penalty as you can muster for things like death.

I consider myself a hard core player, I think my wife would as well, and I guess the tip of the cap I give Blizzard and WOW is that the death system is nothing I've ever felt strongly one way or another about.

Content, asset re-usage? Don't get me started, but the death system? Not so much.

[Noah EQ2]

Originally Posted by Twobit Whore

What do/did people at level cap in EQ risk? Honestly. Raiders faced almost zero penalty. To think otherwise is just silly.

So that whole risk-reward argument is moot. You go for the greatest reward and faced the least risk and frankly that is a busted system. WoW may not be perfect but it's leaps and bounds better than EQ from a scaling standpoint.

I remember at 60 and wiping assloads in EQ1 caused possible delvling. Hell, people didn't want you in Fear/Hate until you were atleast 1 level higher than 45 or you could get fucked. So yes, there was a hurt on raiders in EQ1 but it was not cash, it was time you needed to spend re-exping.

[Gaereth]

Back in the beginning of EQ you ran to get your body because you usually didn't have a cleric with you and the time it would take to get a cleric to you was a waste. Hell, I didn't get my first rez until my monk was level 45 and got stuck in a death loop and a GM fixed me up.

Then as you got big and tackled the larger stuff you pretty much always had a rez. Sure, there are time when you died without a rez, but on the whole when you grouped at the top levels you always got rezzed so death wasn't an issue. It was actually more of an issue BEFORE you reached max level.

EQ's death system was backwards. For those at the top and doing the cutting edge stuff you always got a big rez. For those not at the top or working without a net then it was a harsh penalty.

WOW has very little death penalty until you start working on truly hard stuff, then the cost becomes a problem. Sooo...the harder the stuff you are trying to do the more of an issue the death penalty becomes. It is much more aligned to the risk vs reward system than EQ ever was.

The nice thing about durability is that you allow the player to choose when and how they will regain what they have lost. You don't have to fight for exp, you could farm, or play the AH, or transfer some money from an alt. It allows the player to recover in a way that works for them and it has a natural progression of cost depending on what you are doing. Do the hard stuff and get hammered for loosing. Do the easy stuff and you aren't penalized a lot.

[Noah EQ2]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Content, asset re-usage? Don't get me started.

Lets!

We see it in WoW (hello mine_01), VG, EQ2.... not sure about EQ1 and other games. Pet peeve of mine truly but do the benefits out weigh the atmosphere loss?

[Venjenz]

Of all the MMOs I have played, I think Anarchy Online has the best death mechanics. The Insurance/Reclaim system let's the penalty be a controllable level of harsh. The good parts are:

1) You cannot delevel from death, since leveling is an autosave to the last known Insurance terminal used.

2) The exp pool anooys some hardcore purists, but is a great idea. It's like making every zone a hot zone until you recoup all the exp you've lost.

3) For the people who squeeze into their gear using outside buffs, it creates a really tough death penalty because they have to go back and find all those outside buffs for their gear to work. Engineers and bureaucrats reliant on Mocham's Gift for soloing know what I am talking about.

4) You can decide whether time or money is more important. If time is important, you save often and pay the Insurance terminal piper more often. If money is important, just rely on the autosave when you level. If you're somehwere in between, save here and there in the middle of the higher levels.

Your gear doesn't degrade, you don't have to fetch a corpse, but for most difficult content, a death puts you out of the loop for at least 10 minutes, maybe less if the guild is using a dedicated fixer/MP/engie team who warp people back into action. and unlike the WoW system of ghosting, running back to where you were fighting isn't a free ride past any respawns or whatever.

It doesn't get better than AO for well balanced death penalty that doesn't make new people quit and still gives some measure of excitement/nervousness to long time players.